SBR Utopia Season II - OPEN (Page 45)

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Starting with a disclaimer - this is also my first full season of tri racing, and I haven't done a HIM (yet).  2 sprints and 2 Oly's this year, HIM in a couple weeks.  So, not exactly a huge data set from which to extrapolate...  However, since that has not yet ever stopped me, here goes. 

Oly pacing:  Totally agree with the "bike one or two bpm below threshold, run hard just below blowing up for the first 5k, then TRY to blow up the last 5k" sentiment, or thereabouts.  Worked for me and left me pretty empty.  If I'd biked much harder (e.g., averaged a HR a couple beats above threshold, with some anaerobic excursions on hills or passing), I THINK the run would have been grim.  As it was, in one race I was able to drop someone on the run and the other I finished with a steady run that was about a minute above my open 10k PR and with a little left in case there was a sprint finish (I was racing rather than "time trialing").  But, I felt like if my legs were at all more tired from the bike that I would have been left with no kick or reserve (and prolly would have been slower all around, too).

HIM:  You got me...  But, I did have an interesting training ride last week (that will bear on the Oly pacing - wait for it).  I pre-rode my upcomging HIM course (plus another 10 hilly miles) and then ran the first half of the HM.  Biked at an average HR on course of ~28 bpm below TH (my max is 179, threshold - what I can hold for an hour - on the bike is low 160's) and then ran well for the 10k or so at 155-160bpm (my threshold on the run is high 160's, as I can hold ~165 for an open HM), with more in the tank when I finished.

The bike was lower HR than I was planning for the race (was thinking of averaging 10 bpm below TH), with the run right about what I want for the first half of the run (then ramp up each mile until I blow up or finish!).  What was the surprise was that after 63 miles, that easy breeeezy HR actually took more out of me than I was expecting!  I'm thinking about biking closer to that (maybe 20-25 bpm below TH?) for the race, which is way easier than I initially planned.

I know you're asking about the Oly, so here's where this ride/run come back to your question.  We have similar HRmax numbers, with your TH being a bit higher (I'm surmising).  Having held what you did (agree with the "stud" performance comment!) on the HIM, then I would GUESS that shooting for low-mid 160's on the bike and mid-high 160's on the first 3/4 of the run (with the end of the run being whatever you can handle without actually passing out ON the course) is in the range.  My recent Oly HR was 154 on the bike and 159 on the run, and I could have held a leeeetle higher on both (still getting this pacing thing down).

Aside:  Dang, I wish I had my PM on my tri bike this season instead of my roadie!  Well, live and learn... next year.

Hope that helps.  It sounds like you have a decent sense of where to be for this, and it matches what my very (very very) limited experience would suggest based on your other races, as well.  Again, worth what you paid here.

NOW CRUSH IT!!

Matt

Originally posted by ChrisM

Speaking of pacing,,,,   When I got my fit I liked what the fitter said.  I could get [XX] more watts out of the bike fit, but he suggested riding at XX-10 watts and saving those matches for the run.  It's an interesting concept and has to be adjusted going from sprint/oly courses to HIM/IM courses.  Sometimes it's hard to see a number and not want to better it.

On my training rides, I've really been working on (and sometimes struggling with) the concept that, if I can't be right on my target wattage (which I usually can't, especially on rolling terrain), it's better to be 20 watts under it, than 10 watts over it.  My default setting is when I am told 2 hours at 200, I want to see a number at or over 200.  I think that's the wrong approach.

When I trained for the last IM I remember reading something like, Go too easy on the bike? you've got 26 miles to make that up.  Go too hard on the bike?  You've got 26 miles to remind you.

Just musing......

Originally posted by ChrisM

..

On my training rides, I've really been working on (and sometimes struggling with) the concept that, if I can't be right on my target wattage (which I usually can't, especially on rolling terrain), it's better to be 20 watts under it, than 10 watts over it.  My default setting is when I am told 2 hours at 200, I want to see a number at or over 200.  I think that's the wrong approach.

When I trained for the last IM I remember reading something like, Go too easy on the bike? you've got 26 miles to make that up.  Go too hard on the bike?  You've got 26 miles to remind you.

Just musing......

Originally posted by ligersandtions

My bike got new shoes today  A set of Flo 60's.

Haven't been on the bike in almost a month and it's gotten a power meter and new wheels....I need to get back on it before I buy something else!  Getting a new MRI on Thursday, so I guess we'll see where to go from there.

Originally posted by switch So, I'm 39. My max HR may be 181 or 182, but no more than that. I have pushed to puking and it was 180 in the Garmin. I probably did go after it too hard on the HIM bike--lol, shocking, I know and that's why my run was so freakin slow. I think one of my strengths as an athlete is being comfortable being uncomfortable. Before I started doing z2 stuff, I would do 3 hour runs in the mid to high 160s. Oops. Trying to be smarter now

Well, if you can run 3 hours at mid to high 160's, then your threshold (max you can hold for an hour) is higher still. Those are pretty sick numbers for a max at 180 (puking generally indicates a max of sorts). So, while you might have overcooked the HIM bike, maybe not by all that much (?). Just sayin'...

Originally posted by mcmanusclan5

Question: Is racing a sprint (0.5/12.3/4.4 mile s/b/r) the Sunday a week before a HIM a bad idea, a marginal idea, or the most awesome idea ever(!)? I have a "peak" workout in all 3 sports that day, but peaking at HIM pace, not sprint pace. While I love racing and like the idea of my last peak workout being short and FAST before the taper week, I REALLY don't want to sabotage myself. And I'm not the kind of person who can just go easy at a race - I'd be better just sticking with a workout ( if there's a number on me, I'm racing whatever the distance dictates for my pace). Thoughts anyone? Thanks all! (from iPhone, so formatting might stink - sorry). Matt

Originally posted by ligersandtions

My bike got new shoes today  A set of Flo 60's.

Haven't been on the bike in almost a month and it's gotten a power meter and new wheels....I need to get back on it before I buy something else!  Getting a new MRI on Thursday, so I guess we'll see where to go from there.

Originally posted by TSimone So today I mixed in some 5 minute "threshold" efforts into my medium run.  Holy train wreck Batman.  I missed three of the 5 targets (badly) and on my cooldown I actually had to walk because of abdominal cramps.  And I mean massive, bring me to my knees cramps.  Humbling and a bit of a learning opportunity.  I think my target paces are OK (7:45-8:00) because I have routinely hit that range on other runs for longer durations.  But I think I went out too hard on the first 2 and I'm probably not drinking enough daily.  Of course I could just lack the fitness that I think I have.  I'll give it a go next week and hopefully pace better, but am prepared to adjust the targets if necessary.  The walk of shame was no fun...

Originally posted by ligersandtions

My bike got new shoes today :)  A set of Flo 60's.

Haven't been on the bike in almost a month and it's gotten a power meter and new wheels....I need to get back on it before I buy something else!  Getting a new MRI on Thursday, so I guess we'll see where to go from there.

Originally posted by axteraa

Fun!  (not the MRI)

Just to stir the purchasing pot, do you also have fast tires and latex tubes for the FLOs?  

Originally posted by spudone

I'm actually almost the same.  Age 40,  max HR around 185, but I can hold 160s for a long time.  If I overcook it on a HIM, it's usually because I had too many spikes above threshold.  This is one area where it's easier to see with power because you might not be doing those long enough to see it affect your HR.

The last open marathon I did, HR:

http://app.strava.com/activities/8013998

Now I didn't train for it and you can see where I blew up about mile 20, but I can hold a high threshold for a long time.  I'm just pointing out everyone's different.  It's important to test your HR... there's no one-size-fits-all.  But also remember to ride smooth, low VI using all your gears on long course.

Originally posted by switch OK, so I took my bike into my LBS (run and owned by roadies who openly make fun of triathletes, btw), and asked them to put ContiGP4000s on with latex tubes. I literally got laughed at.  "Triathletes are weight weenies" was actually said.  (OK, deep breath, they're the only Specialized dealer in town.)  So then we got into this whole discussion about how they would never run a latex tube because of the risk of puncture and that the weight/speed savings is negligible.  

They know how clueless I am, so they just looked at it as an, um, "educational opportunity," but I have read on BT and ST repeatedly that Contis + latex are the way to go.  

What say you, oh SBR Utopians? 

Originally posted by TSimone 

That's what I run on my race wheels.  And it's not weight so much as rolling resistance and IMO a bit more comfort on long course.  Roadies are probably more weight weenies than triathletes.  We're aero weenies.  But in the end, we're both still weenies.   

Originally posted by bzgl40

Were they just crapping on the tubes or the tires too?  All the roadies I know actually ride with the GP4000s and they were actually the ones to get me to switch way back in the day.  Although I never heard about latex tubes until I got into tri's. 

Originally posted by bzgl40

Were they just crapping on the tubes or the tires too?  All the roadies I know actually ride with the GP4000s and they were actually the ones to get me to switch way back in the day.  Although I never heard about latex tubes until I got into tri's. 

Originally posted by axteraa

Exactly, it has nothing to do with the weight and everything to do with the rolling resistance.  When properly installed (which is the hard part) a latex tube is no more puncture prone than regular tubes.  The trouble is they are very sensitive to being pinched during installation and if your rim tape isn't seated properly or has any flaws they can easily pop.

Originally posted by Experior I think you answered your own question -- bad idea. Sure, you'll 'feel' recovered just a couple of days after, but you won't really be, and you should be in taper mode in the week leading up to HIM. That doesn't mean that there is zero intensity in your workouts the week prior to HIM, but that sprint race will take you an hour or so, and a straight hour of sprint-level intensity is a bad idea. Think more in terms of some shorter pickups during a couple of workouts leading up to the HIM.