Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it (Page 5)

Me too! At least today I took a breath before the wall... but I wasn't off time and wasn't doing a "half stroke". I held my last breath too till the flip. Maybe not right... but it certainly helped me a) keep water out of my nose and b) maintain my streamline longer without needing air.

Don't know if it's right, but I pull with my dominate arm coming out of streamline and take a breath. But that usually equals a body length past the flags.

It's pretty simple, every breath you take costs you time, about .3-.5 second, and, no matter how good you are, your body is not in the optimal position when you take a breath.  You really don't need the breath and you are only delaying it by a second or two.  Learning to feel that discomfort will also make some aspects of open water swimming [hopefully] less scary.  However, it is way down the list of things newer swimmers and tris should worry with.  

If you have kids that swim go watch the impact of breathing on the speed of a swimmer, especially the younger ones.  Or, if you swim with a newbie tri crowd, you will see the same thing.  

Don't agree with me, you might be called unenlightened.  

So the not-breathing-to-save-time is actually a non-issue?

Agree with your last sentence. I think at some (not necessarily all) flip turns is a good opportunity to practice that as any. On the same token, so is prolonging the breath through several strokes now and again, particularly during a challenging interval. There's nothing magic about doing it at the wall before turning.

I am curious as to the bolded part. I did not think it would be that much. I have been working on cutting down my swim times particularly my 1,000 yard time and am wondering if I would be faster skipping one breath every 25 or 50 to improve my times. Where is the trade off in a lost breath and slowing due to lack of oxygen? I imagine there is no clear cut answer. Usually I start off taking 3 strokes off the wall for the first 200-250 before taking a breath before resorting to the first stroke. I ask because I have some swim meets coming up and I will take every second I can get.

Ya... which brings me back to the start of this thing... you still need to breath. Obviously I hear you saying I don't need to breath every stroke. I can accept I can lower my breathing times and still be fast... But I don't get where the breaking point is.

Last year I did some open water swims without my wet suit... I was just as fast without as I was with. Without I felt free'er and could breath more, with helped with buoyancy. At least that was my thinking.

So swimming at T-pace and over I don't get how I can get behind and where I make that up.

Which also makes me wonder why there seems to be a push on shorter intervals like 50's, 100's and 200's. I have found that doing longer swims, such as a 2000 straight at a good pace once in a while, gives you a chance to learn better pacing and seems, at least for me, to produce a somewhat different physiological response or adaptation. I do not believe you get the same experience or feedback when always swimming shorter sets.

I found this thread interesting as it relates to this subject. Not that I thought hypoxic training was good, but some interesting info for what I have been asking.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=64082&start=1

Glad to be back. For the OP's benefit and the others that would like to understand the air exchange during turns, I will keep to the point and try to share some thoughts. 

I also see that this discussion has drifted into two more areas, SPL, DPS, stroke rates and such and breathing patterns during racing/ training in freestyle swimming. We can have a civilized discussion about all of it.

1. Never hold your breath, you are either inhaling or exhaling, never holding your breath

2. During turns, every extra movement beyond required will create more urge for breathing, being tense anywhere will demand more oxygen, so relax what needs to be relaxed

Last breath is taken at flags or slightly inside, accelerate the kick into the wall, constant measured, very slow air release though nose only, preferred, keep it releasing through the turn so water does not come in, push of the wall, tight streamline, have tight body position but relaxed at the same time, enjoy the momentum from the push off and do not do anything for a second, count 21 and 22, no need for dolphin kicks here at this stage, later yes, air is coming out of both now, mouth and nose, still slow release, after a couple sf seconds of gliding, turn the kick on, brake the surface tension in a very tight streamline, head in line with body, 2-3 strokes before your first breath, 2 is ok, you will have broken the surface  with minimum drag. When you master this, introduce underwater dolphin after push off, you are  more than likely to accelerate much faster out off the wall, brake the surface tension even faster and have better transition into a flutter kick, yes oxygen demand goes higher, but use it on your next door lane lead during short 50s or 100s, no need to mess with it on distance sets.

The key here is slow release of air through nose only first, than after push off slow still, but through mouth and nose.

With time, this air exchange becomes less stressful mentally. For the start, bring into the wall, closer, your last breath and than progress out toward the flags on 50s and 75s, extend later to aerobic sets of 100.....Yes, it is a progressive overload. 

On the other hand, try to hit the second part of the turn after leaving wall as I described as that it is where most of the speed gains are. At least try 2 strokes before first breath so that you have broken the surface tension in a best body position possible.

Episode 2 coming tomorrow. 

For shorter distance races I think this not breathing after the flags coming into the wall, throwing in a few dolphin kicks off it and and few strokes then a breath works fine. The races are over pretty quick. But I am not seeing to many, if any, world class distance swimmers doing this for longer distances. Yang does not do any dolphin kicks, takes a breath well inside the flags and starts breathing every stroke beginning on the first one off the wall. I have had masters coaches try and get me to cut down on breaths and more dolphin kicks off the wall but it does not jive with what I see the best do, nor what my body is asking for. There has got to be a point where cutting down the breathing is slowing you down over time.

If I were to cut out a breath to save a few tenths here and there in a distance race, I would look at doing it halfway down the pool when I feel like I am more under control.

I really agree with you here, on everything. For distance swimming, occasionally (mindfully) extending the breath through several strokes or if one wishes at the wall is useful because sometimes you can't get a breath; you get a wave or a splash, or you need to tuck your head down and pass a competitor. But as a routine matter of swimming, no, I don't see its utility.

The reality of racing these days is that walls are the "5th stroke."  About 30% of swim racing now is done underwater.  The ability to have good walls, including SDKs and breath control is the difference between good and great swimmers.  The best swimmers may breathe in but they sure don't breathe out and they are also turning sub :50 100s.  If you race and have a coach the one thing they will emphasize over and over is quality turns.  That is the easiest place to get free time and free speed.  You may not like to hear this, but it is the truth.  Good walls win races.  And, good walls means breath control as much as possible for your given event.  

I think most of you are correct on breathing and racing. It is really not the same across the whole range.

Racing 50 and 100 is done on restricted breathing. I will not get into the patterns, no need, you have nothing to gain from it. 50s are no breath for elite swimmers.

200 and up, take as much oxygen as you need, elite swimmers sure do. It was mentioned above, breathing is disruptive to the perfect body line, no matter how well you hide it. Yes, it is slowing every swimmer down. However, oxygen supply outweighs that argument as the racing gets into 200 and up. Current 1500m WR holder proves that. Breath as much as you need. Do not restrict.

It is similar with dolphin kicking off the walls, 200-400, very strong, swimmers go hypoxic to do it, beyond that a lot less to none. It is widely known fact that oxygen supply plays a major role in the closing stages of these races, you breath in previous quarter to supply the current one. So to speak. Dolphin kicking and strategy change in the last quarter to last 50-100 as swimmers do use them more in those stages. Last 50 can usually be very hypoxic depending on swimmers training and race strategy selected.

It is universal that competitive  swimmers train not to breath inside the flags regardless of distance. You don't have to, so I do not see the reason for argument.

Math and swimming, stroke rates, DPS..........I am not going to flare up the argument, but will share this, the concept is there no doubt and it is a widely used tool among coaches and swimmers. While developmental swimmer work on foundation of it, it is not until the late stages among high school level and up, when all the growth is over, front to back biased developed, known heights, stroke perfected........it is then that we get into heavy emphasis on racing with certain number of stroke in all 4 strokes.

The race strategy for every swimmer includes, times, stroke rates and breathing patterns. That is a part of the race pace training  of all competitive swimmers.