Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 5)

Originally posted by axteraa

My coach had me doing R Pace workouts before ever touching I pace and before getting heavily into T pace.

A typical R pace workout for me was something like

WU: 2 miles easy
6-8x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery between
Cooldown for 1-2 miles easy

WU: 2 miles easy
3x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery
1x400 at R pace with 60 seconds recovery
3x200 at R pace with 45 seconds recovery
Cooldown for 1-2 miles easy

I quickly went through my logs for the last year and every R pace workout was pretty much one of those or a close variation.  The first one was the most common and all I did for the first while and once I had done it a bunch then the second one was used here and there.

Originally posted by popsracer

Read some interesting stuff tonight that got me thinking about my next insertion of quality work. Repeats.  Contrary to what I would have thought, JD seems to recommend this type of quality work in earlier phases of training.  As I understand it, learning good form by running shorter faster repeats should be done before more taxing Interval and Threshold work, assuming one has adequate base built to progress there.  So what would a typical R workout look like in terms of warmup, main set, and cool down?

"R Pace. Repetition (R) velocity is faster than I pace, at the very least, but, unlike I and T, is not based on V02max. Rather, R pace is to a great extent, based the race for which you are training; it is more designed for good mechanics at a pretty firm pace."

While my short term goals are for a marathon I am tailoring my quality work at faster paces, more on the lines of 5k.  I do race quite a few 5k's through the year but since I never have trained at this pace, my form does feel a little wobbly at those paces.  I can see where getting more comfortable mechanically at these paces would be of benefit. 

Originally posted by rrrunner

Wow, I am soooo far behind! I did read all the posts though . I kindled the book last night and will start reading tonight.

Hi, I'm TJ. I'm 46 and was a runner in HS. Then marriage and kids happened and running didn't. About 6 years ago I started running more (I'd done some off n on) and dropped about 40 lbs. There was really no method to my running, just put on my shoes and go. I've done lots of 5k and 10k's. I've done 2 HM, one stand alone last November and one at the end of my 70.3.

I still don't have much (any) structure to my running, just go out with a time or distance in mind. I'm looking forward to the book and getting some efficiency from my training and, hopefully, watching my times go down.

I have a HM in October but I don't know that this reading/training will help me in time for that.

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Do you mean that you plan on doing more R and I work? Or what exactly do you mean by tailoring your quality work to 5K?

Originally posted by popsracer

As I understand it, VDOT is used for establishing I pace but R stuff can be faster or slower than VDOT depending on the distance you are training for.  "R pace is to a great extent, based the race for which you are training".  Even though I am training for a marathon I still want any deviation from VDOT to err on the side of 5k race pace.  JD says that you if are training for a marathon, he might have R pace be slower than someone training for a shorter race.  Marathon pace is just too slow for me not because of mechanics but lack of endurance.  So for the purpose of this workout I have to go faster.

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Welcome TJ!

Originally posted by popsracer Leavenworth Oktoberfest.  I did the half last year and it was sooo much fun.  First time I ever stopped at an aid station for a beer.  The beer halls afterward were epic.  I ended up wearing a chicken hat.

Originally posted by wgraves7582 Late to the party again but I just picked the book up at the Library and am waiting for B&N to ship me my copy home. I had it before and browsed through it but it is much more science than a mind like mine needs - just run slow and every once in a while run hard and if you want to run long miles build up and plan on being wiped out on days you run 15+ miles but still have enough energy to do a recovery spin on the bike afterwards. I have done a 6 hour ultra and ran 32.5 1 month before my "official" marathon, 1 marathon (4:00:15) and some other shorter races but really am too cheap to pay to run a 5k because I can step out my front door and run the best 5k course in Western New York for free every day of the week. That being said I have a buddy that drops 2:40 marathons with no effort at all and I would really like to keep up with him on his easy days and not be dead for the rest of the week so I will give this a shot. In short I would love to BQ but I don't know if I really want to train to BQ - I doubt that makes much sense but I am not a fool and realize the effort that it takes and to be honest with you I don't know if it is really that important to me - so I guess that means it isn't right? You fast people are my inspiration and my envy all at the same time

Originally posted by Asalzwedp>

Honestly the run slow and every once in awhile run hard approach is not a bad one. That's simplified but not all that different than what JD is saying.

You can totally just read this book and do your best to understand it without feeling like you need to implement every single element into your daily training.

Originally posted by wgraves7582 Pg 15 (1st Edition) love this line: You must give considerable thought to every aspect of training, and you must know what everything you do is doing for you or to you.

Originally posted by Asalzwed

 

I'm thinking maybe we can break the book into part I, part II and part IV.

Let's leave the discussion open to talk about part I for another week and then we can start talking about part II around Wednesday the 25. Of course, if something comes up from the previous portion go ahead and post about it but we should be moving on as we only have a month.

If people want to talk about part III, go ahead, but I don't really think a lot of time should be spent there.

 

So, what are people's initial thoughts? Is there anything that you find difficult to understand? Is there anything that dramatically changed how you viewed running/ training? 

Originally posted by popsracer.  I have subconsiously resisted easy runs because I did not believe (lack of understanding) that certain adaptations take place at that pace.  Most of my runs were probably at something between threshold and (M).  I struggled for three years with overuse injuries as a result.

It is more efficient and the risk of injury is actually less to do most of your miles at easy and THEN do proper quality work for focuses on speed, VO2max, economy, and strength.  I just did my first (R) workout and it was really eye opening.  Before reading this I would have missed the true purpose.  I had viewed it before as more of an engine thing whereas it is more of a neuromuscular adaptation thing.  It was easier than I thought it would be even with stupidly surpassing my VDOT paces.

Last takeaway was after doing a proper (I) workout I've learned they suck.  I usually reserve barfing for 5k finish line.  Actually didn't quite barf but was very close.

Originally posted by Asalzwed

 

I'm thinking maybe we can break the book into part I, part II and part IV.

Let's leave the discussion open to talk about part I for another week and then we can start talking about part II around Wednesday the 25. Of course, if something comes up from the previous portion go ahead and post about it but we should be moving on as we only have a month.

If people want to talk about part III, go ahead, but I don't really think a lot of time should be spent there.

 

So, what are people's initial thoughts? Is there anything that you find difficult to understand? Is there anything that dramatically changed how you viewed running/ training? 

Originally posted by dtoce reading this just makes me smile!!

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Perhaps I could ask a question. I tried in TT but didn't really get anywhere. In regard to altitude training, how far out from a key race should you train at altitude and what is the minimum amount of time you should spend?

JD definitely states that there are indeed benefits and that they tend to be permanent (as Elesa brought up, I was equally surprised.)

What he doesn't really elaborate on (or not that I saw) was the details of how to go about it.

Originally posted by dtoce Unless you live in elevation (I can't remeber if it's considered 'elevation' until 5K feet?), it will be difficult to get a benefit. The effects of training or living at altitude take place over weeks. There are several mechanisms, but they include: some changes in blood volume (via EPO, no really) and 2-3 DPG and other technical stuff which I can't remember. The longer you are there, the more your body will adjust to the low oxygen and changes occur so that when you return to normal elevation, those changes persist for several weeks. It's like legal doping. And the effect is not permanent. Why do you ask? Are you going to buy a home hypoxemic tent?

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Perhaps I could ask a question. I tried in TT but didn't really get anywhere. In regard to altitude training, how far out from a key race should you train at altitude and what is the minimum amount of time you should spend?

JD definitely states that there are indeed benefits and that they tend to be permanent (as Elesa brought up, I was equally surprised.)

What he doesn't really elaborate on (or not that I saw) was the details of how to go about it.

Originally posted by

I haven't read the section yet on training at altitude but her are my n=1 thoughts...

After growing up in Denver (5,200 ft) I spent 6 years living at lower elevations, first sea level for 6 months then about 5.5 years at 1,000 ft. When I moved back to altitude (again about 5,000 ft) it took me weeks to get accustomed to the elevation again.

So my thoughts are that there may have been some permanent change that made my adaptation back to altitude easier than, perhaps, someone who hadn't lived at altitude, but I definitely had to get used to it again. When I lived at sea level I could feel the loss of that benefit as my training runs became less "easy". 

That being said, it proabaly took me two or three weeks to get used to altitude again, and longer to be comfortable with it. As for change in blood and all that, no idea.

OTOH, I luf racing at sea level!

My .02, probably worth less than that.