Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 53)

Thanks to those posting the course change info - I wasn't really expecting that. There is a post up over at ST from someone who got direct info from WTC, confirming what most here have said - change to the run course, no change to the bike course this year (I'm really glad about the bike course part, since I just bought the real course video for the computrainter):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Fo...

Hey guys and gals.  I am in need of some new cycling shoes and was looking for opinions.  I would love to hear praises and negatives of any tri shoes you own or have owned.  Happy training. 

I love my BONT sub9s. Just adore these after using some of the carbon LGarnaeu ones. Real stiff bottoms for great power transfer, nice arch support, easy off/on, and roomy toe box. I was advised by Matt Cole when he was at All3sports to get the top end specialized pair but they didnt go up to my size 49.

If any of you are ordering any gear/bike/whatev from All3sports, I think I get a discount code tomorrow at the initial team meeting for 15% off orders, so PM me if you want the code.

Actually took my first day off in ages today and didn't beat myself up too much about it.

I have a pair of the Bont CTT-1 road shoes, which don't have the heel loop like a tri shoe.  But the fit is so good I love them.  Also CdA (at least last year) didn't allow amateurs to leave their shoes attached to the bike.  So a road shoe wasn't a big deal.

As for the Bont tri shoes, they have what basically amounts to a shoe horn built in and a nice big loop... really easy to pull them on.  All their shoes also have a little wider toebox compared to Sidis.

The only drawback is they are uncommon in stores, so you might have to order them.  I caught mine on bonktown... not sure where else to look for them.

Add me to the list of those who thinks a tri-specific shoe is not necessary at IM distance racing.  You'll need to put on your shoes before getting onto the bike... either in T1 tent or near the mount line.  As indicated, you can't have them on the bike.

You can leave them on the bike as you enter T2, however.  Depending on your model road shoe, this may be possible.

I don't own a pair, but if I my cheap cannondale 3-velcro shoes (which I bought when I first got into this sport, and I haven't felt needed an upgrade) died for some reason, I'd be taking a good long look at specialized tri-vents (if I could only have one shoe and also did short course racing) or s-works (which uses a boa + lace system I really like).

Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-02-15 7:03 AM

Been reading post for months for CDA now, so thanks to all the repeat guys for sharing.  I must admit - biggest worry (CURRENTLY) is the bike.  I did the Nevada Pumpkinman Half IM in October and the bike kicked my butt.  Also my nutrition was bad because I tried to stay aero all the time (7500 of climbing and head/cross winds on most of the downhills).  Luckily eating everything I had on the run allowed me to finish.  I CANT let that happen again!

Pulling the profile I've been trying to do hill specific training.  Endurance isn't my issue, but speed will be.  It will kill me to do all this and then miss the cut-off if I have a bike issue, etc.  Already do the 1 leg drills but will add in the tabatas.  Thanks

I'm riding 4 times per week - last week was a total of 7.5 hrs for the week.  My strength is my run so I'm willing to trade workouts where needed.  Have avoided aero bars due to back issues and bike geometry but ride mostly in the drops.  Sounds like I might have to revisit this later on though. EVERYONE seems to use aero bars.

So my actual question - I live in AZ and am trying to match the profile for CDA to see if I'm improving at all.  Most of the elevation maps (like map my ride, etc) are inaccurate .  Does anyone know of an easy to use (free) tool so I can find a good 56 miler here? Any other advice is also appreciated.  FYI - This is my first IM (bucket list thing).  I'm 46. Oh, and I'm an engineer so I can't ever have enough data!

Cheers!
-Denise

~Life's short - Play Hard

Hi Denise - welcome to the group!  I have two bits of data I think will help you:

1) back issues and bike fit.  There is no reason a properly fitted bike with aero bars should cause problems for your back.  I'm a L4/5 diskectomy graduate myself, and ride a fairly aggressive position on my time trial bike (an entry level aluminum cervelo).  In fact, for me, my TT bike is more comfortable than my road bike, because my upper body weight is resting largely on my elbows, not the entire length of my arm... which is a much longer lever.

It is unlikely that you can be fitted properly for riding in the drops and riding in aerobars on the same bike... you'll need to decide which way you'll be riding most of the time and accomodate that... but in the race, particularly if you are afraid of making the bike cutoff... reducing your aerodynamic profile by getting properly fitted to ride in aero will be the biggest benefit you can get.  Aerodynamic resistance is the biggest thing you have to overcome on a bike on all but the steepest climbs.

It's possible your current bike won't work well with aero bars, given the geometry.  This can be fudged some with a flipped seatpost or aftermarket "fast forward" seatpost (and probably a longer stem too)... it will depend on how much adjustment is necessary before things like bike handling are compromised. 

If you are comfortable on your road bike, you can likely be comfortable on a time trail bike (or maybe even on your rode bike with clip-on bars).  When you convert your road position into a TT position, virtually all of your body-angles remain the same, but are rotated forward around the bottom bracket.  But it shouldn't make you do any contortions you aren't already doing on your well-fitting road bike.

But the good news is you are doing the first thing I'd recommend for someone who is worried about the bike... riding a lot!  I'd drop most of the drills for now, in favor of more hard riding (the tabata intervals being a good example).  Keep doing that between now and CdA, plus increasing your long ride, and you should be great.

Still, you might be shocked at how much "free speed" there is in:
A) proper fit to ride in a time-trial position (may or may not require new bike)
B) aero goodies like tight clothes, aero helmets, and wheels (wheels can be rented)
C) reduced rolling resistance from racing tires + latex tubes.
D) reducing your carry-on luggage on the bike (when there's an aid station every 10 miles, you don't need a bottle on your bars, two on your frame, and 2 behind your seat).

If you're worried about the cutoff, then "free speed" shouldn't be ignored.  The only problem is those things aren't really free... they all cost money.  But they also all make an instant difference in your bike speed, vs. the progress incurred through training.  And combined, the difference can be huge.


2) Don't worry about trying to match the CdA profile perfectly.  Just ride hills often (short and steep, long and gradual, mix it up), and ride hard often, and ride long regularly.  It's not free, but a garmin forerunner 305 can be obtained for about $100 and will soon be your best friend if you like running and biking and want some data to analyze.

Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-02-15 1:36 PM

Welcome aboard. Josh happens to know what he's talking about. First thing I would do if I was doing my first IM in June as an age grouper would be to get a Tri-bike with proper pedals/shoes and professional fit, a garmin 310xt, and a plan or a coach that fits your schedule/fitness/personality. Then I would follow the plan to the best degree possible.

I personally saw many folks riding road bikes but why not go aero if you can afford to? The helmet isn't going to save you that much time, but the fit and the proper pedals/shoes will add loads to your power. The garmin data will be really helpful to track progress and design/execute workouts.

Tri-Bikes on the used market are great value and you can pay for a fit in isolation (without buying the bike from the shop) in many cases. Arizona should be great training grounds especially now!

(had to change my pic - was told the old one was lame)

Thanks guys!  Yes, I'll go for all the free speed I can get and even though another bike is not an option I will go for a "new" fit and see if they can transform me into a more aero machine.  Working with a coach also - wouldn't go with out that - my birthday, christmas and anniversary gift for the next 3 years - ha ha!  I'll have to save up my lunch money and sneak in the Garmin.

AZ is perfect weather for training for now and reading this sight has inspired me for my swim this afternoon after an iffy morning bike and such a crappy day at work (oops - reading blogs at work!)  - so thanks!

Look forward to sharing the love!
----------------
~Life's Short Play Hard

it's very possible a good fitter can get you into a very good position on your road bike... think of it as everything getting rotated forward around your bottom bracket while maintaining your body position, or if it's easier, think of it as being rotated around your hips and then slid forward (this is why getting lower up front will require you to slide your seat forward and/or get a new seatpost most likely).  Of course if you move too far forward, yourweight can get too far forward and the bike can become unstable.  If you do this, you'll need to commmit to riding in aero most of the time, which will be the only real comfortable position on the bike.

It's possible a good fitter can get you in a decent postion to ride aero with one seatpost, and another seatpost (or flipped seatpost) to ride in your road postion on your bars.

that pic is a great improvement

obviously your body will adapt to your bike over time/miles, but you want it to be most comfortable in training and on race day. if not, your strength in running may get neutralized due to a sore back or whatever. Starting a marathon with a sore back/legs after 7+ hours of swimming/biking is the last thing you want...

I'll mention your comments to the guy fitting me.  He is really thorough.  He knows I had some back surgery late 2008, and since you are in the club of L4/5 I'm sure you know the everyday pain you wake up with (I also have damage at L5/S1) but this is why I'm doing this now and not for my 50th.

Hard ride this morning went better than yesterday, but sill not eating enough DURING the ride.  I'm sure it's just a discipline thing.  Does anyone else have this issue of taking the time for nutrition when your riding hills and no flats?  I started mixing hammer get with water to make it flow easier, but sure the calories won't be enough for rides longer than 3 hours.  I'll scan through the blogs here and see if there are some creative ideas for us newbies.

Thanks for your help!  I'll let you know how the fitting goes!
Happy training
_______________

Life's Short - Play Hard

I bring solid food in the form of gu blocks because some time i just need to chew something, but most of my calories come from liquids that I drink. I have an inviscid water-only container on the downtube and two wing/back bottles filled with powerbar perform and carbo pro. sometimes i add hammer endurolytes into the bottles too. you can get those online if your local shops dont have it.

carbo pro mixes into the liquid  (as do salt tabs and endurolytes) and gives you as many carbs/cals as you need. I usually mark my back bottles with the amt of hours I fill it with using a sharpie. and then drink accordingly (if its a 3 hour bottle, i drink a third every hour).

for me around 300-350 cals per hour give or take work (but i am big) and i can make the bottle match the cals per hour i need. we have debates on all message boards about what products work and dont work for each person, but bottom line is you need to find out now and practice/track it.

some of the experts on the board can tell you why the liquid is more easily digested than solids. i dont care about the mechanism, just that it works in practice and thus on race day.

Edited by phatknot 2011-02-16 9:41 AM

I also used almost 100% liquid calories last year, except for a handful of chips during the run.  But a lot of people prefer some "real" food.  You have to experiment and find out what works best for you.

If you have trouble getting enough fuel while biking, set your watch to remind you every 15 or 30 minutes.  Decide how many calories you want per hour (250? - depends on your weight) and eat/drink some of that when your watch beeps.

Another feature of the garmin (and plenty of other watches) is that you can set it to chime at given intervals (time or distance).  Many people use this as a reminder to eat/drink on a schedule.

I have mine beep every minute on the run.  To remind me to stop walking and start running.  Actually, it is so I can work out my run/walk ratios and be able to adjust them easily.

Anyone that knows me since I started training would laugh at my saying I needed an alarm to remind me to eat!  Seems like I'm constantly planning food, packing food, eating food, logging food or talking about food!  All the other hours I'm training.  No wonder I'm consumed by this!

Nice pun.

I've run both of my IM Marathons using a 3/1 Run Walk interval and was running strong all the way to the finish line while many were on the death march along Lake CDA drive. Whatever your interval is practice it for all your long runs - it worked really well to time nutrition etc.

My big goal in particular for this race is not time based. Rather, it is to run the entire marathon. No walking at all costs. It push comes to shove and I have a meltdown, of course I will walk, but I really want to keep from having a 5 hour marathon again like at Louisville. Any tips on being able to do this (besides pacing and the obvious ones)?

 You are smart to realize that if you just keep running, you will be passing loads of people during the marathon.  A few comments:

1) run more than most IM plans prescribe.  Focus primarily on endurance... you won't be doing any VO2 max work on race day, unless you sprint the finish chute.  For most of us when it comes to scheduling our training... something's gotta give.  I've widely advocated in this thread that the last thing to give (unless you are really really weak in one discipline) should be running.

2) I know you said "besides pacing" but that's what it's really all about.  Those loads of people you pass on the run who are walking are people who didn't pace themselves correctly... probably on the bike.  Some people also mess up and go out too hard on the run.  I have a lot of problems with the Endurance Nation training philosophy, but I think they've nailed it on their race execution strategy.  It's a free article or cheap DVD (I think they've done podcasts too), and they do this presentation at most IM's during the pre-race expo.  The bottom line is that if you pace properly to be able to run the whole marathon, you will finish closer to your max potential than 75% (totally made up number, but it's the majority) of the field finished to theirs.  And if you held back just a little too much, you can run a little harder for your second half of your marathon.  But if you went too hard too soon (just like if you ate too much), it's really difficult to recover from that.

3)  Don't walk.  Yep, that's my advice for not walking!!!!  MOST IMers walk at least the aid stations, and many IMers walk much more than that.  Jogging through an aid station can easily save you 30 seconds per mile.  In my experience most people have trouble starting back up after they walk the aid station, and end up walking longer than was "necessary" (I'd argue it's not necessary at all) to refuel.  Let yourself slow down if it hurts, but don't walk.  You should rehearse this mentally during training.  You should be prepared for the conversation you are going to have with yourself on the marathon, when your body says loudly and convincingly that it needs to walk, and you have to tell it whatever it is for you that is more powerful.  For some that will be logic about how much faster running is, for others that will be very mean-sounding encouragements (suck it up you big pu$$y), for others that will be some sort of inspirational phrase (winning, and quitting, are forever), for others that might be a memory of how much their family sacrificed for this race and the thought of being able to tell them they ran the whole thing at the finish line while they wait for you expectantly, etc.  You need to know yourself and know what combination of arguments is going to be louder than the screaming coming from your legs.  And I'd recommend it not be too complicated because you can be pretty deeply drained by mile 130.  Look up the "inspirational quotes" thread as a starter... but for me it was because I had done the math and I knew what it meant for my time if I kept running.  I deep down inside really truly believed that I would keep running no matter what.  I was stopped in my tracks with hamstring cramps on 2 separate occasions, but I never walked... I either ran or stood still (and I probably should have slowed down more before the cramps... becuase there is nothing slower than standing still... walking is far better).

4) Don't see walking as a failure.  If you have to walk at some point, if you are either in pain or your body just can't (not doesn't want to, but CAN'T) run... it's okay to walk a little bit.  But the key will be to see that as a recovery from going out too hard, and a lesson learned, and then adjust your pacing so that you don't have to walk again.  I'd argue that the greatest predictor of who will be walking later in the race is who is walking right now.  Just becuase you are forced to walk once, don't give up your mental toughness and resign yourself to walking later.

5) pacing your nutrition.  Most people start the run with too much food in their stomachs.  Then they try to cram more down during the run.  Eventually, your stomach says no more and you have digestive trouble.  I think more people overeat than underfuel on your typical IM race day.  It is far better to have consumed just a little bit less than to have consumed too much... if you fall behind in your nutrition, you can fairly easily try to pack some extra in to make up for it.  But if you get ahead of yourself and your GI tract revolts, it is very hard to reverse that.


Lastly, let me say, this post is not meant to discourage anyone with a run-walk interval plan for the marathon.  That's a valid approach and something many people have found success using... but for those who want to run the whole thing, and can commit to the training (in the midst of all your other bike/swim training) to do that, it will pay huge dividends.  This post was an answer to Dan's question about how to achive his (I think very smart) goal of not walking.

And Dan - I'm a big fan of being hard on myself, so I respect your comment about not wanting another 5 hour IM mary like at louisville... but I'm also here to say cut yourself some slack... that was one hot/humid miserable day to run a marathon.  You probably LITERALLY had a meltdown. 

Under the category of PLAN B:  I learned the hard way at Mooseman 70.3 last year that if you have a cold rainy day, it is very difficult to get all of your calories from liquid.  I simply didn't sweat enough to need more fluids.  I am now practicing some days with the solids that are offered on the course so that if we have one of those days on June 26th my GI system will be better equipped to deal with them.   PLAN C will be to see what the fast food options are along the course.    

Lots of awesome info!

For starters, I have read the Endurance Nation bit and tried to take it to heart during IMKY, and for the most part it seemed to help a lot.

I currently have a coach, and I asked about increasing running volume (100 miles a month, for example). He said that 100 miles a month might not line up with the goal he has for me based on what we talked about (not walking the marathon). I want to discuss this more with him, or just add an extra run during the week on my own. I often like to go out and do stuff, even if it is not on the schedule just for fun.

As for being hard on myself, you are right. I literally did have a meltdown on the run. Started on the bike with nutrition issues and compounded from there. What I attempted was to try different things in an attempt to kickstart my system back to normal, but obviously it didnt work. I practiced my nutrition more so than the race itself, so I guess I need to stick with my guns. I have bonked before in a race and it is not a place I want to return to (blacked out during the run) so I suppose that is where my obsession with timed nutrition comes from. I think nutrition timing is more important on the bike than it is the run, because of the importance of that 112 bike ride, and its ok to improvise with it on the run so long as you know each element you may add to the equation (be it coke, grapes, pretzels, etc).

I'm not discouraging others from the walk/run combo, but that just doesn't fly with me. I started IMKY run VERY conservatively, and it was hard to get the motor going mentally when I needed. I do not want to go into the race knowing that I will immediately have to walk, because for me it is a sign that I did not train enough.

I think everyone on this forum can recall a time where they were having a rough run and decided....just briefly...to walk (you know, just until that next telephone pole). We can all remember cheating ourselves by going to the next mailbox after....then to the fire hydrant (you get the idea). The feeling of starting to run again after walking in a marathon is awful, almost worse than before you took your "walk break". Point is, I don't want to cheat myself into thinking that it is ok to walk when I know deep down I can run the whole thing. Now that I know that, it is all about getting from point A to B.

Two things about what Josh said:


I agree... for running.  For biking, there's a lot of benefit in pushing hard intervals in your shorter workouts to improve your FTP.  Then in the race, when you "hold back" on the bike, you're starting from a higher point.  You still need to do the endurance work / long rides in training, but that's just half the equation, in my opinion.


Do a running event leading up to the Ironman and practice chugging drinks at aid stations while you run.  It's easy to fumble when you're tired, and tempting to walk when you see other people doing it.  Better to practice with a shorter race.