Fast Twitch Tri-FULL (Page 7)

I REALLY appreciate this input.  Gives me alot to think about and plan for.  I might end up postponing the marathon - I think alot will depend on how I do with some mileage increase.  I will look for some HM's coming up, might be better.  Thanks again!

SAMANTHA -

Last things first..... I kinda sorta like the Tigers.  My dad spent a few years in Detroit (living on Woodward!), probably around 1923-1927 range, so he was a Detroit fan once he could remove Boston teams from the equation.  He was more of a Lions fan, maybe because there wasn't a team in Boston (until the Pats were bron in '60) to share affections with.  I think he liked the Red sox more than the Tigers, which is kind of odd because from a teenager on, living just outside Boston, he prefered the Braves over the red Sox -- until the Braves left Boston for Milwaukee in '53.  at amy rate, he never browbeat to like the Tigers, although as a kid I was quite enamored of the wonderful Al Kaline.

I came to the conclusion a few years ago that a true sports fan is not so much defined by the height of passion for their favorite team, but rather by the degree to which they despise the team they hate the most.  So, that's kind of me and the Yankees.  You could get a baseball team made up of 24 serial killers, and I would want them to beat the Yankees.  Seriously!

Finally, on this topic, my son looked long and hard last winter to moving into downtown Detroit.  he is station managaer for a university radio station in Guelph, Ontario, and so his leanings are towards "alternative", or "indy" arts.  He learned of the vast underbelly of alternative stuff in Detroit, and was smitten by the energy of those who are working to recast Detroit in a truly unique (and mostly unprecedented) way.  He even found a great property, incredibly inexpensive and with rental possibilities AND a building in back that he could see as a recording space, but as a young guy withot a U.S. bank account, he couldn't arrange the financing.  i don't think the dream has died, but it's in limbo for the foreseeable future.

SO!  With (a) my dad's history in Detroit, (b) my son's interest in Detroit, (c) my recollection of Al Kaline and others from the 50s and 60s, and (d) the fact that they were playing the hellborn Yankess......rooting for les Tigres was a no-brainer.  And rigth now, as i think I said yesterday, i can't see them losing to either St.L or SF.  I think you have more baseball happiness just around the corner for you!

Last item for now ---- WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS/IS THAT RUNNING INJURY??  Such cruela nd unusual punishment, throwing out all thsoe comments about it but not saying what it was/is.  Is it ITB, perhaps?  Anyhow, i'd love to know -- and chances are I have had a bout with it myself, so I might have a perspective or two to offer.  Try me!

Finally, you ARE indeed a terrific runner.  Your run time at Burlington was superb, and your run placement in your very wicked-fast age group is really impressive.  The creme de la creme of fast, young whippets was assembled at Burlington, and you had a fabulous placement against them -- many of whom have been doing tris since they were kids!

I have to head off for a concert now, so I will get back to the rest of your bio later.

And that injury of yours?  Don't forget!!

Ah... Okay, I'll go into the qualitative stuff. Bike racing isn't so much about strength, endurance, or peak power. It's about knowing where to be when, taking advantage of the work of others, being able to switch gears (not "gears" like chainring and cog combo, but effort) whenever needed, being able to go beyond 100% when needed, and being tactically savvy.

The people who did well early season were the ones that rode with the team year-round, not just spending the winter on the trainer or riding solo. There's NO WAY to train yourself into good racing shape in solo efforts -- sorry, there's just no way to push yourself into the kind of shape needed. And when the season starts, and then culminates in mid-June with Districts and then Nationals, it's just a constant build and sharpening of those skills, teamwork, and top-end snap. As long as you metered out your efforts and only dipped into the well when it really counted, you'd be there in the final dash. If you're racing solo (as in not on a team), or racing crash-4 (because it's EXTREMELY rare for a cat 4 team to ride like a team), then it's a free-for-all. There's something magical about having a plan as a team and executing it.

I had a very good team when I was bike racing. I was a good break-away starter, could drive the break well, but never had the snap to make that final drive to the line. So I was also the 1st lead-out man. Meaning that I'd take the lead at about 1-1.5 miles out with 2-3 team mates on my wheel (a second or third lead-out man, and the sprinter), and just go. Go until my legs totally locked. My job was to keep the pace high enough that no one wanted to come around me and take the wind. Two laps from the end of a crit, you'd see this train form up at the front. I'd take it to less than a quarter mile, and then the 2nd lead-out man would take over. At that point I just hoped that the people behind me had their heads up and didn't pile-drive me from behind (I'd usually end up finishing about half-way back in the peleton -- I would be THAT spent). But it worked like a charm, and we had one of the winning-est teams in the area with these tactics.

But I was also a very good TT'er and hill-climber, so all those crits and circuit races where I'd spend myself for the sprinter, I got back in the hilly races and stage races -- they'd help block the peloton while I took time out of the field in small breaks, even if I didn't get the top spot on a stage.

Okay... so back to the training. Train like a racing cyclist. Do group rides. And not just rides where every one wants to pace-line it for a long day. Make it an aggressive ride, sprints for the town-limit signs and all that. If you can, get on the track -- you'll get schooled on sprint tactics in a hurry there. Learn pack dynamics. Sure, you need endurance and strength, but your success is going to be determined more by your savvy than your legs.

And you'll be amazed what the suffering you go through in that kind of environment will do for your tri bike leg...

Apparently I haven't either.  Not even close to that.

My daughter is having IT Band issues right now.  Once she's done I told her she needs to blow-up (bonk) on a 5K.  Right now she's "pacing" herself too much; read "holding back too much", which is still much faster than I run.

I need to take some of that same medicine and push it to the point where I blow-up too.  My last 5K I felt a light pain (stitch?) in my abdomen near right side floating ribs.  I just held the pace where I felt it the whole time, not increasing or decreasing the pain.  Got a PR, but it was also a very flat course.

Guess I need to take a couple of running segments near home that make up 2 miles and keep running them faster each week until I end up going slower and find out what my max pace is and then do another 5K at that pace or slighter faster.

Ah, that side stitch is telling you that you're breathing with your shoulders instead of your belly. What that does is hold the diaphragm in a static position, thus it cramps.

To remedy (and you can do this while you're running), dig your fingers under that rib and press, and bend over at the waist. Hold that for a few seconds, then release and stand up. Then make sure you're breathing from your gut.

But the whole "taste it" doesn't refer to puking (that's only after the finish), but the whole tasting your lungs in your throat feeling. The same is true for an entire sprint tri...

Holy crap, I just got totally fired up by this! I'm wishing I had a group ride to be on right now!!!

Well dang, I've read that about breath from your gut/belly, and thought I was, but...  I also have an 8" scar running through there from gall bladder surgery that had to be completed the old-fashioned way.  Recovery from that surgery cancelled the Peachtree 10K on me one year.  I felt the scar tissue rubbing for a long time, some days I still do, but not many any more.

I used to get that stitch occasionally when I was younger, but that was the only time this year.  Must have been breathing wrong as I was running harder.

I've gone with the 88-91% definition of Sweet Spot so it's a bit narrower range but close.  Also, I don't know whether the inidvidual KK units vary much from each other but mine was usually about 40-50 watts higher than my Quarq (which I calibrate before every ride).  As long as you're using one consistent measurement, then you'll know if you're going up or down but just sharing my experience.  I also do 2 complete turns on the tightening knob after it contacts the tire and always keep the same tire pressure (using a trainer tire).

For Q - the notion of sweet spot training is that it gives you a the most efficient aerobic benefit so if you are time-constrained, then it's a good workout to do instead of a longer aerobic-level workout.  I'd like to do cycling 5x/week but just can't find that kind of time without cutting into the other workouts (or my other priorities). Typically sweet spot workouts are 2x20' or 3x20' (or 3-4 x15').

This year, I've had too many instances where my HR is low but my legs feel completely spent on the bike (even just on stand-alone bike rides) so I thought that I may be lacking some muscular endurance in my legs hence the time trial and big gear focus.  From April to October, I do some group rides that help me with my surging as I try to keep pace with the bike racer types.

Yeah...cycling isn't big enough here to have true team dynamics.  It's pretty much a free for all.

When in bike training, I try my best to train like a roadie.  I join in on a couple of really hard group rides where we punish the heck out of each other...and on one ride we have 6 sprint points.  I agree that no solo ride can ever simulate that.

I suppose I come down from my peak really hard and my peak doesn't last as long because my base isn't as big as a true roadie.  If I was piling up mileage throughout the whole year, then piled on even more in season, I think I'd see better results.  But I guess that's pretty obvious...

Steve, 

re: the injury... In short: it's basically pelvic misalignment... I was going to spare everyone of the details, but since you asked... One fine spring day (a day or so after my first triathlon May 2010), I was running through my house for no good reason and I whammed my foot hard into a chair.  So hard it hurt to walk on it, let alone run.  Well, eventually I figured out a way to be able to walk and run without putting pressure on the part of the foot that hurt.  So basically I was walking and running with a limp for a good few months while the one part of the foot was healing.  Doing this severely alters one's gait.  It is not good to go for prolonged periods with an altered gait.  My own conclusion is that this is what ultimately contributed to align my pelvis poorly enough to a point that is, well, not good.  As then what happened during the HIM, hamstring feeling like it popped, was the result of my hips bones being messed up. There are a lot of muscles associated with the hips, and because the pelvic bones aren't aligned properly, muscles are pulling in ways they shouldn't be.

I will skip over my horrible (in my opinion) physical therapy experience as that just adds to an already long story, but then I decided to give an ART specialist a try. I really think he helped me.  I just feel it was the difference in approach.  He got me to a point where I got walk without my groin area hurting.  (It had been hurting with each step I took with the way those muscles moved during certain movement.)  I had many many sessions with this ART specialist (who is also a chiropractor) and I really do think he got me to a point where I can manage it.

To this day, I still get worried about this hip issue, as sometimes I think it feels off... like today for example, it felt like some of my glute muscles were pulling in ways they shouldn't be...  I'm worried that it will eventually just pull way too far like before... which is another reason why I'm sticking to shorter stuff for now, because I'm kind of afraid of going long and making the issue worse... that and going long is tiring.

re: Detroit... I do nonprofit work in Detroit and as a result I've talked to a lot of residents, elected officials, and foundation people who are interested in the growth of Detroit.  It has been very interesting to say the least.  It's difficult to summarize in just a paragraph, but definitely there's a lot of innovation and good things happening in Detroit.  I thought it went a little far, but I think it was the NYT that had an article called "Detroit: the new Brooklyn" or something, referring to the artistic folk who are coming into the city.  But there are tons of stories like these all around.  Lots of people coming from the outside and doing great things for the city.  A couple of corporations investing in the city by moving a bunch of their employees from the suburbs to downtown, etc.  On the flip side, well, it can be argued about what is being done for the lifelong residents (i.e. the poor folk...) and I suppose we'll leave it at that, as that's a whole different discussion.  Regardless, there's no doubt that there is good that's coming to the city!  Small steps!!

I'm not sure I understand - FTP is the effort/wattage you can hold for 1 hr straight.  If you broke it up into chunks with recovery/rest periods in between, then you should be able to do a 4x15' at threshold (isn't that the point of intervals?).  For example, if I took 5 min recovery between each, I should be able to hold FTP again for the subsequent set as I took the time to recover.  On this past Tuesday's workout, I only had time for 3x15' (after a warmup) and was able to hold about 93% (higher cadence exercise), 102% (close to the right gear for my optimum cadence), and 98% (bigger gear than I would normally use) with a little over 2' between each interval.  I was doing a Spinervals workout where each 15' set was generally doing a different gear (along with some standing portions).  I am probably due for a retest in a few weeks (last test was about a month ago) as I also ran 21 miles on Sunday and was probably not fully recovered.  I compare a current workout to a previous workout and this last 3x15' was just slightly lower than my previous effort (probably as I was fresher the last time I did the workout).

Definitely will figure out if I have the legs to do the Friday workout.  I am used to doing 3 bike workouts a week (I've been able to maintain about 95% of my bike fitness) through most of the year but thought I needed a 4th one in there to make improvements.  

I've noticed that my cycling quality workouts suffer with the increased run mileage from training for a marathon so when I drop back to less miles in 6 weeks, I was hoping to be able to recover better and start seeing the gains on the bike.  I keep my logs current and will update the group when I retest.

I understand your logic, but you have to understand that FTP is race effort.  Meaning it's the power you can hold for 1 hour assuming you are absolutely fresh when the 1 hour starts, and you are pretty much puking at the end, and need a minimum of 24-36 hours of recovery before you can do anything but a recovery workout.  Think of it like a 15k running race.

When you do these workouts you're suggesting, I'm assuming you are carrying in some type of fatigue into the workouts from normal training.  I'm also assuming you would like to workout the next day, and you want to repeat these workouts week after week.  I'm sure you could do 4x15 @ FTP...once but it would ruin the rest of your workouts and hinder your overall progress.

There is a big difference between 3x15 and 4x15.  Actually the difference is huge because when you're doing 3x15, you should pretty much want to quit after the second set...and you're absolutely done after the 3rd.

Now, it is very possible that you need to retest.  If you have made improvements since your last test, or if you were not sufficiently rested before your last test...then obviously your FTP could be underestimated, and it would be a lot easier to hold longer intervals.

Lastly...2x20's @ FTP or 3x15's @ FTP is REALLY REALLY HARD.  Hence why I suggested 95-98%.  If you can do them at 100%, you should feel extremely proud of yourself because that is by no means a ho hum workout. 

Hi Steve!!

I think I probably compare myself too much to other people when it comes to running. I feel like  I should be faster, lol. I tend to be  very conservative in my training runs because of past and current ITB issues. I have had PT twice to help resolve the issue and earlier this year I missed out on Rock n Roll HM in New Orleans due to severe ITB pain. Still have small flare ups but I can usually head it off with rest and using my trusty foam roller and stick.

I am doing GirlPower again in March. I love doing the same ones every year so I can see how much I've improved.  Hoping to really improve my run and bike - was totally unprepared for the rain and hills during the bike in this race.

Noelle,

Hello there! We can pretty much do our own thing. Our bikes don't have computers either. I work at the YMCA (my side hustle, lol) so the only thing we really have to watch is the lyrics in our music.  I wish we did have computers that would be awesome!

Thanks!  Going with that strict definition of "rested", then my tested FTP will be slightly understated because I won't taper for a test (but that's similar to the condition I'll be doing the workouts anyway).  Will try and take it easy the day prior but I figure that as long as I'm in the 'range', the workout should still be what it was intended for.

On those 3x15 and 4x15 workouts - I definitely need to have the Spinervals video (I used Spinervals 14.0 Totally Time Trial).  The only time I can watch TV while on the trainer is if my efforts are SST at most (but mostly lower - like aerobic or recovery pace) as they are definitely hard (if I lose concentration, then it takes me a minute or so to get back in).

SAMANTHA -

I saw your post to me about that pesky injury (intriguing!), but for now I'll just finish up with thoughts on your bio.

That's always an interesting reality check -- to feel disappointed at how a race/season/dsicipline has unfolded or progressed, and then going back to the logs.....and realizing that the training just wasn't there to enable a strong performance or noteworthy improvements.  I am going through that myself now, through a few different lenses, and I keep coming back to the reality that my training was down quite a bit -- especially in the crucial time from July through September.  The dopey thing about this is that I have been this route before, and shouldn't be surprised or disappointed -- yet that is my first (and second, and third, and ....) reaction.

ANYHOW, that's me kind of commiserating with you about your reflections on swimming,  and just gently prodding you to give it more attention in the off-season.  But it sounds as if you are already in that place, seeing a path forward to will give you much better swim times.  Cool beans!

As for the cycling...........any chance you can cajole someone into giving you a sweet fluid trainer for a Christmas present?  That might make cycling more tolerable, or at least easier to work at.  But you seem to have good resolve there anyhow, citing 3x a week as a goal -- which would be a very good one!

When I was being coached back when, I received workouts in 3-week blocks --- so your instincts are laubdable in wanting to have a 2-4 week picture in front of you.  For me, it was just perfect in (a) planning training time vs other commitments, and (b) seeing where coach was taking me.  I'm guessing that some of both of those pertain to you as well.

I will get to your injury soon, and in time I'll spend some time with your logs.  As for today, do either the Wolverines or the Spartans matter to you?  (My daughter's husband's sister is doing graduate work at UM, and got them tickets for today's game, as they are visiting her.) 

DARRELL -

What a story.  Kudos to you on many fronts, with I guess the biggest being staying off meds for so long.  It is always wonderful to hear of people who have turned things around in their lives through doing this silly stuff we do, and then actually grow to love it in its own right.  Quincy commented to me a few days ago that this group alrady has a life of its own, and as for how triathlon grabs so many people -- in those cases it too seems to have a life of its own.  Funny how it works that way!

The good news about not knowing if you like sprints or olys better is ---- you probably don't have to decide!  I think they really are like kissin' cousins, so close to each other in many aspects of training, and definitely in terms of recovery.  It is really good that you now have that oly in place so you can compare, and it might be that you need a few more of both in other to choose one as a preference over the other, or you can just keep blissfully bouncing back and forth between the two.  For me, I love romping through sprints with a sense of impunity, figuring that I can go red-line and not implode on the scene, while olys serve as a more serious test of, especially, my bike and run abilities.  I have pretty strong time goals in place with olys, whereas sprints are really just about edhe-dancing with speed that i can then bring to olys.

ANYHOW, that's me, and as for you -- it's just all good that you have found two tri "homes" that make you happy.  As you know, there are sprints and olys all over the place, and one can keep themselves satisfied and tickled too, especially in Portland.

As for Portland, though, is that ME or OR?  I'm guessing OR; why, I don't know.  I have some familiarity with both, having lived a couple years in Maine, and having spent summer of '73 at the Oregon Institute of Marine Biology, near Coos Bay (Charleston, actually).  Lynn and I are looking at going to Portland in December (longish story), but probably won't.  I would love to spend time at Powell's Books, and I can also pay homage to the late, great Paul deLay, who was one of the most innovative blues harmonica players, ever.  He was from Portland, and died a year or two ago.  Weighed about 600 pounds and lived life hard, so no surprise that he died kind of young.

But I digress again!   Your resolve about swimming often is admirable, and I hope you can pull it off.  I think the key to improving at swimming is to focus on technique, and for those of us who aren't natural-born gifted swimmers, it is easy to implant bad habits in the priocess of churning out endless laps in a pool.  That was my story, anyhow ---- mega swimming when i began in '00........but so much of it while developed gnarly little bad technique habits.  I still work to shake some of them, but genrally to no great avail.  Grrr.

More on swimming, later!

Your 2013 goals and races look mighty fine.  As for the Portland oly (which again amkes me think it's OR for you), that one is run by Jeff Henderson, I think, and if so it will be a superb race.  he is the brain behind the Musselman races in Geneva, NY, and both the half-iron and sprint are done to perfection.  He was one of the very first (maybe THE first) triathlon RD to "go green", and that aspect is very important to him.  He also gives a ton back to the community, at least for Geneva; I expect he approaches Portland the same way.  Anyhow, i am envious of you for being able to do that race, and I hope it's a great one for you!

Finally, your 5km PR of 22:45 is really solid!!!

SAMANTHA and AMY!!!

Ack!  I goofed up on you Michigan women!  It was AMY who asked about the Tigers, and as I'm still working at knowing who's who here, I posted the Detroit teams comment to SAMANTHA.

So, I apologize to you, Samantha, for cluttering up my post with unwanted pro sports info (You were probably thinking "Why is he telling me about this??"), and Amy -- please see the post to Samantha. 

Ack!

AMY -

See post a few above for an apology.......and then go to my post to Samantha, about halfway down page 8, for comments on the Tigers and others.

As for your shoulder, i had a nasty shoulder impingement a few years ago, and when it referred pain to my deltoid (and sometimes a bit further into the biceps).  What I felt was a steady sort of ache, which I took to be the nerve that was "caught" in the acromium (sp?) arch transferring discomfort downwards.  I could also, at times, feel a similar ache along the back of the shoulder; really not so much was at the top of the shoulder.

That said, however -- when I went to extend my arm upward (as in putting on a buttonless shirt) or outward (as in swimming), THEN i would feel bigger pain at the top of the shoulder.  That was one of my tougher injuries, as it took a few months to resolve itself. 

Anyhow, do any of your symptoms jive with mine?  I cna also tell you that mine came upon very suddenly and very specifically -- which is laways good because you know exactly what NOT to do in the future.  Mine was fromone day watching a swim video of an olympian with a very high and close-to-the-body arm recovery, so what does brain-boy her do -- even knowing of my less-than-stellar flexibility, I tried to do as Mr Olympian did, which was torque my arm/shoulder so as to bring those recovery-phase arms both high and close to my body.  I did this for baout seven stroke cycles................and then realizwed something had gone wrong in the shoulder.  i was smart enough to stop that movement immedately, but not smart enough t o stop the swim flat-out, and paid dearly for it by being a couple of months without swimming.

But you are almost certainly more flexible than I am (so are most telephone poles......), and certainly younger, so even if your problem is an impingement, you likley won;t suffer to the degree I did.  Hope not, anyhow.

That was a lot to write, given that i don't even know if your problem IS an impingement.  But if it is -- then you have some new knowleddge to think about!

Moving on to the knees, there you go -- you know that lunges and stairs cause problems, so you now have tow things to steer clear of in the spirit of saving your kness for another race!  I tore a meniscus in '06 (no running from March until September), and even though it was NOT diue to legwork in the gym, I am 400% scrupulous to NEVER do any leg work with weights when I do gym stuff.  In fact, i go even further and do no leg work, period, just by way of not tempting the fates to mess with that meniscus again.  It was a longitudinal ear, meaning I couldn't get it scoped, meaning it jut healed on its own..............meaning that the problem is potentially still there.  So, i try to be a good boy and not give it added weight with which to wrestle with!

Is the neck problem something other than discomfort from riding?  Like, did you have a neck problem going into triathlon and more focused cycling? 

And again, I aoplogize for confusing you with Samantha, also from Michigan.  I thought i was being dutiful in addressing questions about whether I'm a Tigers-lover or a Yankees-hater.......and then I got them to the wrong person.  DOH!

SAMANTHA -

So sorry about the post with that unsolicited (by you) sports info.  And I even carried that over into the bigger post above, with the question about college football.  Senile me!

Hey Steve,

It is Portland Or. I moved here in 1988 and have tried to move away several times but have found myself home sick after about 2 months of firting with other citys. This place is great for athletes with so many choices of different groups to join. Right know I'm fighting between Sat. morning swims with the Portland Tri Club that has two coaches on deck and half marathon training with Foot Traffic ( a local running store). I wish there could be two Saturdays every week. I have done the swimming before and was able to go from a non swimmer to were I'm at today so I will go back to the tri club in Nov. to get my weekly dose of coaching.

More swim questions later I'm sure.

As for the liking sprints or olys I really thought I liked olys in the only one I did until I was on mile 3 of the run at the Portland Tri and the athletes that were done with the sprints were loading their bikes and had already had a beer in hand (lol).

The Portland tri was taken over by our Athletes Lounge (a local tri store) and they grew it to over 900 athletes competing in the sprint, oly, relay and duathlon.This area has many great race organizers that make it so we dont have to go to leave the metro area to race from a sprint to a 1/2 iron distance.

I think this group is just what I needed and I'm excited to be aboard.

Darrell