Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 7)

OK, so the paragraph  I was referring to about altitude training, was talking about the "breakthrough" at altitude lasting for years, not the acclimatization.  I misremembered.

Here's the paragraph (pg.21)

Altitude training permits runners to reach their potential more quickly.  Some runners experience a breakthrough as a result of increases in weekly mileage or through a more structured program.  I've observed many breakthroughs following altitude training of only a few weeks' duration, and seldom have the athletes involved had any trouble maintaining their new found success, even if they return to sea level for entire seasons, or years performance.

So, Salty, if you could really go to your parents' for a month, maybe it would be worth it.  Maybe a high risk/reward kinds thing.  Though how much of a risk could you really take in a month's time--you won't be losing fitness certainly, and you would get good food and rest (guessing on the last bit). 

I might try it at some point.  It may would be better to do when I run something like CIM so I can train at my parents and then go straight there and run the race.

I'd honestly like to have more specific data so I could make a better informed decisions.

I do plan for a visit, regardless, and of course I will be training while I am there, so perhaps I can just plan a race for when I get back and do a small test.

I will say that we've had an athlete move here from Boulder who's whipping the snot out of me and anyone else he's raced so far.  Even scarier is he just started tri's this year.  He's been running for a couple of years and has a college baseball background.

Altitude training is for real!

Has everyone got a rough estimate of their VDOT? Are there any questions about this?

Also, I'm loving the season plan chapter! This is a really good refresher.

Sort of.

OK, so my vdot is 45, based on a stand alone 5K I did last May I plugged into this online JD running calculator.  I haven't done any other stand alone races since then. 

I have two questions:

1) I don't know how I should determine my "R" pace.  In the table on pg 40, JD shows "R" pace to be 100% of HR max, accept in other parts he's discussed how it would be determined by the race you're training for.  I'm currently training for a marathon.  If I based my R pace on that, I don't think my R pace would serve the R purpose of "running fairly fast, feeling light on their feet and efficiently running at race --or sometimes even faster that the pace used in longer races.  The intensity for repetition training is typically race pace or a littler faster for a given distance." pg 36

OK...so should it be a little faster than my M pace (which is 8mpm), or should it be what this online calculator spit out and more in line with the table on pg 40, which is 6:30mpm.  I guess my gut tells me it should be the 6:30, as I don't think I'm learning much at the 8mpm pace, but 6:30 is so much faster than the race I'm training for...

2) Threshold running pace (which is different than LT) is repeatedly defined as the pace you can sustain for one hour of running and is according to JD pg 112.  My LT is 176 according to that same 5K and my max HR is 181.  According to JD, based on my max HR of 181--my threshold pace would be 159-166bpm, using his parameters of 88-92% for T pace. During my HIM this summer my HR avg was 161bpm (2:41) on the bike and 166bpm (1:55) on the run-- so 4:30+ in my theoretical threshold training zone .  I'm not even sure the question to ask, but it just seems like maybe my profile is weird and doesn't fit in the box?  Help?

Sorry two big numbers questions.  I understand if no one wants to tackle that, but it's what I'm rolling around in my head these days.

Whan you ask about R ,  you mean repetition? 

Chapter 9 will tell you everything you need to know

*This calculator also does the math for you http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

I always laugh abou the .68 part 

I agree about not necessarily needing a pace for things like strides. Generally at practice, we are given a time but I think that is mainly so that we don't go too hard. They are meant to be fast, but not hard and as Dale said, you need to be able to complete 4-6 rather than 2 or 3.  

But for something like a cruise repetition (which is a variation of an R) I think you do need to have some of those rep and recovery times.

In regard to hill reps, we are given a time, say 30 seconds or a minute or whatever and for the purpose of R, we do them as fast as we can while still being able to finish the given set. So, it's a little vague and hugely personal. 

Yeah, you can most certainly do lots of different types of workouts (including R) on hills. There are endless variations.

I went to a Lydiard seminar a while back and it was excellent. 

Curious what your thoughts are on reps on downhills? Is it the downhill running you have an issue with or just the "R" type of speed? 

Yeah, I don't really care too much about that as I am  not an enginerd  it's just a quick easy way to plug in race times to get VDOT. You can reference the book otherwise.

Maybe you can make us a new tool that has accurate percentages (preferably that add up to 100)

Originally posted by MSU_Brad

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by MSU_Brad

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by switch

Sort of.

OK, so my vdot is 45, based on a stand alone 5K I did last May I plugged into this online JD running calculator.  I haven't done any other stand alone races since then. 

I have two questions:

1) I don't know how I should determine my "R" pace.  In the table on pg 40, JD shows "R" pace to be 100% of HR max, accept in other parts he's discussed how it would be determined by the race you're training for.  I'm currently training for a marathon.  If I based my R pace on that, I don't think my R pace would serve the R purpose of "running fairly fast, feeling light on their feet and efficiently running at race --or sometimes even faster that the pace used in longer races.  The intensity for repetition training is typically race pace or a littler faster for a given distance." pg 36

OK...so should it be a little faster than my M pace (which is 8mpm), or should it be what this online calculator spit out and more in line with the table on pg 40, which is 6:30mpm.  I guess my gut tells me it should be the 6:30, as I don't think I'm learning much at the 8mpm pace, but 6:30 is so much faster than the race I'm training for...

2) Threshold running pace (which is different than LT) is repeatedly defined as the pace you can sustain for one hour of running and is according to JD pg 112.  My LT is 176 according to that same 5K and my max HR is 181.  According to JD, based on my max HR of 181--my threshold pace would be 159-166bpm, using his parameters of 88-92% for T pace. During my HIM this summer my HR avg was 161bpm (2:41) on the bike and 166bpm (1:55) on the run-- so 4:30+ in my theoretical threshold training zone .  I'm not even sure the question to ask, but it just seems like maybe my profile is weird and doesn't fit in the box?  Help?

Sorry two big numbers questions.  I understand if no one wants to tackle that, but it's what I'm rolling around in my head these days.

Whan you ask about R ,  you mean repetition? 

Chapter 9 will tell you everything you need to know

 

*This calculator also does the math for you http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

I always laugh abou the .68 part 

I'm no where near chapter 9 yet, but in taking a quick look at the calculator (Runabyou) link you posted, the engineer (or enginerd) in me is screaming that the %s of weekly mileage in the right column don't add up to 100% nor anywhere close to it, honestly. E: lesser of 25% or 150 minutes M: lesser of 90 min or 16 miles (we can assume this is significantly less than 25% of the weekly total based on the E totals above), but we'll call it 20%. T: lesser of 10% or 60 minutes I: 8% weekly mileage R: 5% weekly mileage Total = 25% + 20% + 10% + 8% + 5% = 68% Where is the rest of the training supposed to fit in?

Yeah, I don't really care too much about that as I am  not an enginerd  it's just a quick easy way to plug in race times to get VDOT. You can reference the book otherwise.

Maybe you can make us a new tool that has accurate percentages (preferably that add up to 100)

Or maybe I can just smack you. I'll get to chapter 9 soon enough. I was too busy reading other stuff last night for that. However, it shouldn't take me long, because I read much faster than I run, thankfully.

That is always an option as well  I am not sure how you will get to 100% that way though.

Nah you don't have to be to 9 yet, I was just directing Elesa to more information on R pacing

Freakin THANK YOU!  I looked at that for fifteen minutes this morning before deciding  I was either still on drugs or galactically stupid (or both, probably both) because I could not make that work.

OK, just so I understand your actual LT is higher than the pace for tempo/LT efforts right?

There's a test on BT that talks about determining your LT for running, and it basically suggests a warm-up and a 5K ( I can find the link if need be).  Are you saying actual LT would be better determined by a 10K? I'm sure my maximum sustained heartrate for racing a 10K would be lower than the 5K by a few beats.  172-173 range.

And more importantly, does it really matter? 

I was just thinking that my LT pace, as defined by JD must be off if I can sustain it for 4.5 hours.

Originally posted by jennifer_runs How are you determining your T-pace? It definitely shouldn't be a pace that you can sustain for 4.5 hours! I usually put in my 5K or 10K race pace, and the T- pace is about 10-15 sec/km slower than 10K pace. If you can run 10-15/sec slower than 10K pace for 4.5 hours, then your 10K race pace is too slow.

This was from an earlier post about this:

Threshold running pace (which is different than LT) is repeatedly defined as the pace you can sustain for one hour of running and is according to JD pg 112.  My LT is 176 according to that same 5K and my max HR is 181.  According to JD, based on my max HR of 181--my threshold pace would be 159-166bpm, using his parameters of 88-92% for T pace. During my HIM this summer my HR avg was 161bpm (2:41) on the bike and 166bpm (1:55) on the run-- so 4:30+ in my theoretical threshold training zone .  I'm not even sure the question to ask, but it just seems like maybe my profile is weird and doesn't fit in the box?  Help?