BT Development Mentor Program Archives » Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL Rss Feed  
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2012-10-12 1:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

OK, now I am confused: "Type IIb Fibers 
These fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction (rapid firing) of all the muscle fiber types, but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last as long before it needs rest."

 



2012-10-12 1:41 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
That's DS1's jeep. The one DH and I drive is a grand Cherokee. Gets the job done but more comfortable. We did our hard core younger years
2012-10-12 1:43 PM
in reply to: #4451707

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

rrrunner - 2012-10-12 1:41 PM That's DS1's jeep. The one DH and I drive is a grand Cherokee. Gets the job done but more comfortable. We did our hard core younger years

I had a Nissan Pathfinder with independent front suspension. So, not ideal. But she did the trick alright. I cranked up the torsion bars and put new shocks as well as a small body lift and I was able to hang just fine. Although, no rock crawling for me Wink

2012-10-12 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
Asalzwed - 2012-10-13 2:40 AM

OK, now I am confused: "Type IIb Fibers 
These fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction (rapid firing) of all the muscle fiber types, but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last as long before it needs rest."

 

Powerful is a general adjective. Power as it relates to effort and energy during exercise is a different and much more specific term. Check this out. (Besides, anything that Dr. Skiba writes is really required reading for the serious endurance athlete).

http://www.physfarm.com/govss.pdf

2012-10-12 1:53 PM
in reply to: #4451721

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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
TriAya - 2012-10-12 1:50 PM
Asalzwed - 2012-10-13 2:40 AM

OK, now I am confused: "Type IIb Fibers 
These fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction (rapid firing) of all the muscle fiber types, but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last as long before it needs rest."

 

Powerful is a general adjective. Power as it relates to effort and energy during exercise is a different and much more specific term. Check this out. (Besides, anything that Dr. Skiba writes is really required reading for the serious endurance athlete).

http://www.physfarm.com/govss.pdf

Ok, I will certainly read it and do my best. I know this stuff is important for me to know so I am really trying to understand. 

So are you just caught up on my choice of the word "power" or is there something else?

 

 

2012-10-12 1:56 PM
in reply to: #4388210

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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
Also, let me post specifically what he (my coach) says, "

Most exercises are done to prevent or minimize the risk of injury. This set of exercises below are designed both for injury prevention and for performance enhancement. In regards to injuries, we try to be proactive and anticipate some of the pitfalls, rather than be reactive where you have to rest and nurse yourself back to health. In terms of performance, fundamentally, success in distance running is the result of force production by your legs and supporting trunk musculature.

Distance running is a power sport. Most of the power comes from your calves (see below) but I have also called attention to several other muscle groups and why it is so important to strengthen them.

Your calves are critical because this is where your power comes from, at least initially. The only time you can generate power is when your foot is in contact with the ground. Once in the air, you can use your long stride, but the real power is in lifting yourself off the ground. That is why we place special emphasis on calf strength.

You can also LOSE power when you train. This is true especially for your inside quad, which actually gets weaker when you train for distance. The main way we strengthen our inside quads s is by doing STEP UPS. You can also used a knee extension machine if you have access to one.

You need strong hip flexors to accelerate faster. This is another area where you can lose strength if you don’t take active steps to strengthen this area. We are a sitting society and we need to repower these muscles. You can do this by doing the 1-legged leg lifts, which is the best and most direct way, but also by 2-legged leg lifts, which is designed primarily to strengthen your abs and diaphragm, most essential for breathing.

You need strong abductors (outside leg muscles) in cross country or any race which has turns or curves (XC or indoor track especially). Failure to be strong here can result in IT band problems. I have described some side leg raises which will help you here.

Although less important, I think adding upper body strength will help you run strongly on hills and in kicking. Strong arms allow you to drive your legs."



2012-10-12 2:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
Asalzwed - 2012-10-13 2:28 AM

Well, ok. I was paraphrasing.

What he was saying was that as your train for endurance you end up with a high amount of slow twitch. Am I right so far?

No. The ratio of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscle fibers is probably predetermined. Although some evidence indicates that age-related muscle loss affects fast-twitch muscle fibers slightly more, the overall effect in terms of both strength and endurance remains the same.

Ok, then he said if you are not training your fast twitch, you are losing it.

 

Right so far?

No. As you age, you lose muscle regardless. The relative amounts of the two types of muscles pretty much remain the same, but you can develop (grow, not increase number of) one type of fiber preferentially.

Ok, now he said, train your fast twitch, too

Yes. But not for aerobic endurance; somewhat for muscular endurance (I hate those terms too but there aren't many much better) and that it provides more of a training challenge to train across the effort spectrum and you wind up improving more if you do so.

There isn't any evidence that injury prevention has anything to do with it unless you have pre-existing imbalances, injuries, or proclivities.


2012-10-12 2:06 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

Go Racing Manatees

October 13-14
Kirsten - Energizer Night Race 5k on Saturday
Janyne - le Tour de Femme 100k ride (not race) on Saturday
Felicia - Coronado Heights 15k Run on Saturday

2012-10-12 2:16 PM
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Master
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Rio Rancho, NM
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
Go racing Manatees!!!!!Here's a cool pic from my race Sunday. Thinking of buying it because it has the sign from the state park where we raced



(image.jpg)



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2012-10-12 2:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
Asalzwed - 2012-10-13 2:56 AM Also, let me post specifically what he (my coach) says, "

Most exercises are done to prevent or minimize the risk of injury. This set of exercises below are designed both for injury prevention and for performance enhancement. In regards to injuries, we try to be proactive and anticipate some of the pitfalls, rather than be reactive where you have to rest and nurse yourself back to health. In terms of performance, fundamentally, success in distance running is the result of force production by your legs and supporting trunk musculature.

Distance running is a power sport. Most of the power comes from your calves (see below) but I have also called attention to several other muscle groups and why it is so important to strengthen them.

Your calves are critical because this is where your power comes from, at least initially. The only time you can generate power is when your foot is in contact with the ground. Once in the air, you can use your long stride, but the real power is in lifting yourself off the ground. That is why we place special emphasis on calf strength.

You can also LOSE power when you train. This is true especially for your inside quad, which actually gets weaker when you train for distance. The main way we strengthen our inside quads s is by doing STEP UPS. You can also used a knee extension machine if you have access to one.

You need strong hip flexors to accelerate faster. This is another area where you can lose strength if you don’t take active steps to strengthen this area. We are a sitting society and we need to repower these muscles. You can do this by doing the 1-legged leg lifts, which is the best and most direct way, but also by 2-legged leg lifts, which is designed primarily to strengthen your abs and diaphragm, most essential for breathing.

You need strong abductors (outside leg muscles) in cross country or any race which has turns or curves (XC or indoor track especially). Failure to be strong here can result in IT band problems. I have described some side leg raises which will help you here.

Although less important, I think adding upper body strength will help you run strongly on hills and in kicking. Strong arms allow you to drive your legs."

Doing weight-bearing types of strength exercises to target specific body areas is not a bad idea. It's probably a good one. There just isn't any evidence it prevents or minimizes injury risk in healthy fit endurance athletes with a sound, appropriate training program. (Part of this is that it's nearly impossible to prove that such a thing would PREVENT such a thing). It doesn't mean it DOESN'T help; it means that there's no way to prove or evidence that it does. It all comes down to whether a certain individual feels like it's helping them. (Age also presents different issues). But there is absolutely no way to make broad claims about strength exercises helping to prevent injury, and certainly not across the board with all or even most athletes.

The bottom line is that the #1 reason for injury in distance runners is too much too soon (regardless of where you're at). The #2 reason is pre-existing conditions, tendencies to them, or imbalances. Strength exercises (targeted, specific to the individual and condition) will help #2 but have no effect on #1. The #3 reason is dumb luck (tripping over stuff, dog runs into your knee, etc.)

There's a lot of soundness to what he's saying, but he completely mixes up the terms strength, force, and power between each other and between their colloquial and their scientific meanings.

If you really want to understand the MEANING of what he's saying and its implication for distance runners (and you specifically), read a scientist or coach who really understands the science and can convey it to those who don't.

If you just want to improve, then you're probably fine just doing what your coach tells you to.

 

2012-10-12 2:35 PM
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Melon Presser
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

Go Kirsten! Run 'til you barf!
Go Janyne! Have a great ride!
Go Felicia! Start easy then finish strong if you like and RUN DOWNHILL!




2012-10-12 2:52 PM
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Master
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
TriAya - 2012-10-12 12:35 PM

Go Kirsten! Run 'til you barf!
Go Janyne! Have a great ride!
Go Felicia! Start easy then finish strong if you like and RUN DOWNHILL!


Heh.  I gotta keep up with a 9 year-old.  That may just happen!

2012-10-12 3:30 PM
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Western WI
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
TriAya - 2012-10-12 2:17 PM
Asalzwed - 2012-10-13 2:56 AM Also, let me post specifically what he (my coach) says, "

Most exercises are done to prevent or minimize the risk of injury. This set of exercises below are designed both for injury prevention and for performance enhancement. In regards to injuries, we try to be proactive and anticipate some of the pitfalls, rather than be reactive where you have to rest and nurse yourself back to health. In terms of performance, fundamentally, success in distance running is the result of force production by your legs and supporting trunk musculature.

Distance running is a power sport. Most of the power comes from your calves (see below) but I have also called attention to several other muscle groups and why it is so important to strengthen them.

Your calves are critical because this is where your power comes from, at least initially. The only time you can generate power is when your foot is in contact with the ground. Once in the air, you can use your long stride, but the real power is in lifting yourself off the ground. That is why we place special emphasis on calf strength.

You can also LOSE power when you train. This is true especially for your inside quad, which actually gets weaker when you train for distance. The main way we strengthen our inside quads s is by doing STEP UPS. You can also used a knee extension machine if you have access to one.

You need strong hip flexors to accelerate faster. This is another area where you can lose strength if you don’t take active steps to strengthen this area. We are a sitting society and we need to repower these muscles. You can do this by doing the 1-legged leg lifts, which is the best and most direct way, but also by 2-legged leg lifts, which is designed primarily to strengthen your abs and diaphragm, most essential for breathing.

You need strong abductors (outside leg muscles) in cross country or any race which has turns or curves (XC or indoor track especially). Failure to be strong here can result in IT band problems. I have described some side leg raises which will help you here.

Although less important, I think adding upper body strength will help you run strongly on hills and in kicking. Strong arms allow you to drive your legs."

Doing weight-bearing types of strength exercises to target specific body areas is not a bad idea. It's probably a good one. There just isn't any evidence it prevents or minimizes injury risk in healthy fit endurance athletes with a sound, appropriate training program. (Part of this is that it's nearly impossible to prove that such a thing would PREVENT such a thing). It doesn't mean it DOESN'T help; it means that there's no way to prove or evidence that it does. It all comes down to whether a certain individual feels like it's helping them. (Age also presents different issues). But there is absolutely no way to make broad claims about strength exercises helping to prevent injury, and certainly not across the board with all or even most athletes.

The bottom line is that the #1 reason for injury in distance runners is too much too soon (regardless of where you're at). The #2 reason is pre-existing conditions, tendencies to them, or imbalances. Strength exercises (targeted, specific to the individual and condition) will help #2 but have no effect on #1. The #3 reason is dumb luck (tripping over stuff, dog runs into your knee, etc.)

There's a lot of soundness to what he's saying, but he completely mixes up the terms strength, force, and power between each other and between their colloquial and their scientific meanings.

If you really want to understand the MEANING of what he's saying and its implication for distance runners (and you specifically), read a scientist or coach who really understands the science and can convey it to those who don't.

If you just want to improve, then you're probably fine just doing what your coach tells you to.

 

This conversation is so interesting - thanks guys for having it in our forum - I'm smarter now!! (Still slow, but definitely smarter!)

2012-10-12 3:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
TriAya - 2012-10-12 2:35 PM

Go Kirsten! Run 'til you barf!
Go Janyne! Have a great ride!
Go Felicia! Start easy then finish strong if you like and RUN DOWNHILL!


GO Girls GO!!!

2012-10-12 3:37 PM
in reply to: #4451753

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
jmkizer - 2012-10-12 2:06 PM

Go Racing Manatees

October 13-14
Kirsten - Energizer Night Race 5k on Saturday
Janyne - le Tour de Femme 100k ride (not race) on Saturday
Felicia - Coronado Heights 15k Run on Saturday

Gooooooo manatees!!!!!!!!!!!
2012-10-12 3:38 PM
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Seattle
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
rrrunner - 2012-10-12 2:16 PMGo racing Manatees!!!!!Here's a cool pic from my race Sunday. Thinking of buying it because it has the sign from the state park where we raced
That is a great picture!!!! OMG!


2012-10-12 3:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

rrrunner - 2012-10-12 2:16 PM Go racing Manatees!!!!!Here's a cool pic from my race Sunday. Thinking of buying it because it has the sign from the state park where we raced

That would be a cool photo to have, I'd totally buy it  

2012-10-12 3:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
rrrunner - 2012-10-12 1:24 PM
Asalzwed - 2012-10-12 11:25 AM
rrrunner - 2012-10-11 6:07 PM

Cool reading everybody's goals for the winter. Salty I'm completely with you on the healthy respect for heights.  We've been standing at the edge of canyons the last few days and it  gives me an adrenaline rush every time.  I'll try to post some pix.

As for me, two more weeks off then I start my HIM training. I'm hoping that the 3X3 training will help my time in all three sports and I want to follow the plan with intervals and such as written.

I also want to look more into MTB. While we were here (in Moab) DH expressed an interest in riding but I know he prefers off-road. So I might look in to getting a MTB so we can share that.

I am dying to go to Moab. MTB would be amazing, especially there.  

You guys 4-wheel there too, right? 

You would enjoy Moab. Yes, we did some wheeling in addition to hiking and biking (and shopping and eating)

This is a cool photo too! Fun adventures!

2012-10-12 4:02 PM
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Master
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Rio Rancho, NM
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
And ya can hardly tell in the picture that I'm freezing!

I agree that the fast twitch / slow twitch conversation is helpful.
2012-10-12 4:14 PM
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Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

GOOOOO RACING MANATEES!!!! 

Kirsten: hopefully the 9 year old doesn't wear you out too much!  Have fun running around in the dark!

Felicia: don't worry about that hill.  You've got this.

Janyne: enjoy the bike ride.  Sounds like fun!

Awesome pic, TJ!  I'd buy that one, too.  A real keeper.

Jo: hoping to see some .  Get out there and enjoy spring!

Thanks for the education on muscles, Salty and Yanti.  Always good to learn new stuff.

Please wish me and my hockey team luck...we're starting off our first game of the season with a shorthanded team: 9 players and yours truly in net.  (Don't even get me started on commitment.)  If I can keep the cold that is trying to get a grasp at bay, I'm hoping to do a bicycle Oktoberfest event Sunday.  Should be interesting!

2012-10-12 4:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

Please wish me and my hockey team luck...we're starting off our first game of the season with a shorthanded team: 9 players and yours truly in net.  (Don't even get me started on commitment.)  If I can keep the cold that is trying to get a grasp at bay, I'm hoping to do a bicycle Oktoberfest event Sunday.  Should be interesting!

GO GOALIE MEL!!! (<<<--  That's like the sign that blinks in the stands at the game)



2012-10-12 5:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

GO MELANIE!

You're worth at least any two players, net or otherwise. Do you call them keepers or goalies or something different?

2012-10-12 8:31 PM
in reply to: #4452006

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
TriAya - 2012-10-12 5:00 PM

GO MELANIE!

You're worth at least any two players, net or otherwise. Do you call them keepers or goalies or something different?

No no no no keeper is very soccer RR futbol centric! Goooo goalie Mel!! I am jeaaaaloouus!!!
2012-10-12 10:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL
melbo55 - 2012-10-13 7:14 AM

GOOOOO RACING MANATEES!!!! 

Kirsten: hopefully the 9 year old doesn't wear you out too much!  Have fun running around in the dark!

Felicia: don't worry about that hill.  You've got this.

Janyne: enjoy the bike ride.  Sounds like fun!

Awesome pic, TJ!  I'd buy that one, too.  A real keeper.

Jo: hoping to see some .  Get out there and enjoy spring!

Thanks for the education on muscles, Salty and Yanti.  Always good to learn new stuff.

Please wish me and my hockey team luck...we're starting off our first game of the season with a shorthanded team: 9 players and yours truly in net.  (Don't even get me started on commitment.)  If I can keep the cold that is trying to get a grasp at bay, I'm hoping to do a bicycle Oktoberfest event Sunday.  Should be interesting!

two hours drainer shopping twenty mins run and now a Greek feast too much wine go hum!!!!!
2012-10-13 3:54 AM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Yanti & Salty Straight-Up Ridiculous Manatees Part 5 - FULL

Run today - bizarre, in one house in the front yard and across the footpath - a swarm of bees - thousands and thousands - was a little scared they would make a bee line for me!  But they didn't coz I crossed the road, that family would be trapped in their house.

Goodness me Greeks certainly do lay on a good feast.

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