Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED! (Page 74)

Agree with others - conditions are so variable and it's too hard to compare factors like relative aeroness.  

What kind of bike do you ride?  What kind of position?  What kind of tires?  Total elevation gain/loss?  Wind? Road conditions?  How bulky was your clothing?  Drivetrain losses do matter too - you'll lose a couple percent between the crank and the wheel so your PT will measure less than someone with a crank based system even if you're putting out the same watts.  How do you stop your PT when you stop moving (stop light, sign etc)?  Do you do stop it while coasting to a stop or once stopped?  Before starting again or once you're rolling?  How accurate is your rear wheel calibration?

It all matters and makes avg speed comparisons arbitrary at best if you want to compare a head to head race.  Some will carry through to a race though - better equipment/position (aero-ness, tires) while others won't (elevation, conditions, PT starting/stopping tendencies).

Too many questions to worry about it  Just compare your power to your power and you can't go wrong.

All good points guys - and Kathy, I'd never considered the cooler air has a speed impact, which does make sense.  All that said, we typically measure (from a pure power perspective) against others based on watts/kg.  Jorge had also provided some time splits for some of his HIM athletes, and used their race watts/kg + showed their CP watts/kg.  I've been basing my goal of getting to above 3.7watts/kg with the singular mindset of being able to ride a good bike split later in the year.

I know that for me, my CP is somewhere around 3.5 at the moment.  I guess that I had the impression I would notice that I had picked up some speed over the winter since I concentrated on getting the power numbers up.  I know, I know - too many other variables to consider and me fretting about this is only based off one ride, which was pretty windy.

Separate question.  Who rides a compact crank in the group?  I'm going to buy one, likely used, and am curious about others impressions when making the switch from 53/39 to 50/34.

As a reference, I dug this up - this is why I figure I need a bare minimum of 3.7watts/kg for CP by the time I get to Muskoka, but ideally closer to 3.9 (which is unlikely).  I'm not planning to go 2:30 but I really want the best bike split I can manage.  Here's the quote from Jorge:

That said, in my experience and considering a less than spectacular CdA then, yes, you need a higher W/Kg to get closer to the 2:30/56 miles mark (depending on the course). Something around 2.9 to 3 w/kg for 56 miles should get you in the ball park with a descent CdA.

For reference some data from my athletes:
Tman  - 2:30hr - CP ~265w (4.16w/kg), 194w 0.75IF (3.04 w/kg)
Tman - 2:33hr - CP ~220w, (3.78w/kg), 173w, 0.76IF (2.97 w/kg)
RI 70.3 - 2:27hr - CP ~260w, (4.02w/kg), 204w, 0.78IF (3.16 w/kg)
Muncie - 2:30hrs - CP ~200w, (3.65w/kg), 161w, 0.80IF (2.95 w/kg)
FL70.3 - 2:22 hrs - CP ~285w, (4.18 w/kg), 231w, 0.82IF (3.37 w/kg)
Cancun - 2:25 - CP ~270wm (4.2 w/kg), 210w, 0.80IF, (3:34 w/kg)
Mooseman - 2:38hr - CP ~310w (4.3w/kg), 230w, 0.74IF, (3.06 w/kg)

Their CP W/kg aren't similar, but the W/kg they actually rode at was quite similar (thought I'd point that out even though it is contrary to what we were saying about watts being individual).

What I'm learning and Fred has already stated (perhaps I should have just listened up front  ) is that at the HIM+ distance, CP is a training tool/metric mostly.  To get a good split at the HIM/IM distance, significant work needs to be done with race rehearsals and some guess and test on bike intensities and subsequent run pace and ability to take in calories.  That's why I think you see such a range of IF's (that is of course assuming they paced correctly).

I ride a compact.  I'm glad I made the switch.  I train and race in hilly areas, so the ability to run a tigher cassette and keep the ability to spin up the hills was my deciding factor.  I hate it when you want (as an example) the 18 tooth cog in back, but that's the one that got skipped, so you can either spin too fast or too slow.

At this point, I think I'm strong enough that I'd have all the range I need from a standard and 12-25 (or 12-23 if flat), but I'm still happy with the compact because of the flexibility to run a tighter cassette without sacrificing range.

What really stood out for me - and Joe pointed out as well - was that, with the exception of Cancun and Florida, these guys all rode around 3 watts/kg.  I recognize that those with the higher watts/kg CP consequently had a lower IF - but the IF numbers still seem to be in line with what would allow a good run.  I'm also making the assumption that Jorge didn't post these numbers knowing that his athletes then blew up on the run.  I'm taking it that they managed their day as per the plan.

Why does all this matter?  Well, cause I rode 70km at around 2.9watts/kg and was slow.  I've been focusing on watts/kg, and will continue to, but also think I need to really begin to undertsand what/how I can improve my watts/CDA.  Kathy or anyone else - do you guys have experience with Golden Cheetah or using the Q2T database?  I'm admittedly not very mathematically inclined.

Neil,

I have used Q2T race predictor a lot. The coaching group in located in MA so I have done quite a few of the races in their data base. I don't think you have so it is hard to use it to see where your coefficient of drag is.

I haven't used Golden Cheetah but my coach has. Using the Chung method of testing for coefficient of drag and Golden Cheetah you can compare different positions, bike set up say with bento box or not, bottles located on various parts of your bike and see which tests better. Chung has the detailed directions on line and they are free. You may want to search ST to learn a bit more about it.

To add to what Fred said, what IF any athlete can ride at and run well off the bike can vary. Race rehearsals are great way to test your bike pacing, nutrition to see how your run goes.  What my IF can be to run well in HIM, is probably quite different than yours or Fred's as you are stronger cyclist. But after having a solid HIM run for me I was thrilled finally I had nailed my race execution.  Now my coach and I have been discussing if we had me ride harder slightly what would the effect be on my run. Only consistent training which I can't do currently, and another HIM can tell.  A big part of the fun of this is to figure it out. Comparing myself to others isn't not a positive thing for me, but I'd rather learn from what has worked and what hasn't worked and go from there to try to do better.

Don't get hung up on your April bike pace, isn't your HIM in late summer?  Keep doing the work and you will see results. As you get closer to the race, you will hopefully learned pacing that works for you that you can execute race day and have solid bike and run.

Mistake many do it think they can magically ride higher watts higher than they have in training...some can do it and still run well. Me if I push beyond what I have proven in training my run is slow and painful.

Looking quickly at Jorge's athletes' power numbers, the courses are vastly different and terrain and conditions do effect bike splits. Mooseman is quite hilly very much like IMLP; FL70.3 is dead flat.  Some athletes do much better on certain type courses. Plus on race day sometimes things just go great and other days things don't go well.

I'm listening to you guys - and it is sinking in.  Fred, I'll hold you to the fact that I'll be faster by June!  Kathy, I'll look up some of the info over on ST and read up on the Chung Method, etc.  I also plan to race based on the power numbers come my HIM, so racing harder than what I've done in training would certainly be counter intuitive.  If some can get away with it, I'm guessing they are a small handful.  I just want a solid idea of what my power should look like come race day, and pace myself correctly.  Muskoka is a tough course and I looked at my AG for the past 3 years - top 10 on the bike are all 2:38 - 2:50 (not only tough but also 4km long), so I know I'll be on the bike course for a while

Now I have to start learning about CDA...

How did you guys set up the cleat position on your bike/tri shoes?

I've had fits with 4 different folks, last fitter I was worked with since '05 and never have they addressed that issue. I have wide feet and end up with shoes that are to long to get more width. I need new tri or bike shoes, have tried some one, ordered a few pairs on line, and am considering getting custom D2 tri shoes.

If it is 90 degrees and I ride longer than 4.5 hours from my 3-4th metatarsal starts to tingle, then the outside quarter of my foot goes numb until it becomes quite painful. I have cycling orthotics that push to have my metatarsals spread out which not sure how much they have helped.

I spoke to the owner of D2 and he suggested my cleat placement might be to far forward due to having shoes that are to long to gain width.  Reading more on their website and others, looking at my current bike and tri shoes, no doubt my cleats are to far forward by a significant amount.

Here are some links to read about cleat placement:

D2  page 1

D2 page 2

Another how to page from web

Just curious what your experiences have been. I think to start someone just slapped my cleats on then when getting new cleats position has been replicated by marking soles with sharpie.

I'm consider getting a new fit done once my Ordu is built up to get a second opinion on my fit. I think my fit is very close but need to open my hip angle more by moving saddle up a bit. I have been playing around with saddle position riding my old tri bike.

Must admit - that VDOT chart threw me for a bit of a loop.  You need to run a 1:25HM to reaosnably expect to run a 3:30 at an IM?  I figured a 1:25HM, would likely get you a 3:00 open mary time (give or take), and that shoyuld get you about a 3:20 in an IM - this was based on nothing but the rambling thoughts in my head.

Cleat placement - never gave it too much thought.  Had pain in my knee a couple of years ago, made a small adjustment, and all was good - that's about as much thought as I put into it.

Double Post

Hi All - I hope you all are well - I am on the road a lot these days without much reliable internet service, but I am reading along every day on my phone.

1) The power discussion makes my head swim - I am going to have to sit down with a piece of paper and work it out.... Suffice it to say though: despite what Kathy says about being slower in cold weather - I ran yesterday in 80+ degrees, and I did not find myself to be faster than two days before when it was 50 degrees.....

2) I have not changed my pedal position in 15 years, and am kind of reluctant to do so at this point. I ride Sidi T2s and speedplays, set up a little wide and full-stop forward. No complaints, but I do conceptually understand why it would make sense to slide my cleats a little more to the rear.

3) I will work hard not complain about our abnormally warm weather until Kathleen thaws out. From the looks of her photos that should be about July - that is really tough going!

4) Randy awesome first race - I for sure count age group top three as podium finishes. I will asterisk them though If I got in because a masters from my age group bumped me up, but I still count it. Masters podium trumps age group though - I figure I have about 4 more years to worry about that.

5) Good luck with Lonestar, Rene and Marquee 1/2 Iron Todd - it is really exciting with so many in the group entering race season - I don't really envy the taper time you guys are in though - I have about 3.5 weeks before my race season really starts. Smack talk with the offline racing friends started in earnest about 3 weeks ago though.

I know I missed a lot - but keep safe and healthy everyone!

Fred Doucette - 2011-04-06 6:35 AMHey Rusty, nice to see you

BTW, check out the iron forum discussion about running and the ironman. It has a lot of interesting thoughts.

hey Fred - I actually got the chance to read through that lateast night. As several others have already noted, it is one of the best and most enjoyable BT threads I have read on any subject. Forgetting the fantastic content for a moment, the attitude and voice of all the contributors is exemplary. It is what I have come to enjoy most about BT. Both you and Cathy are awesome role models in that regard (as well as many others, of course!).

As I do not have any IM experience on which to base my thoughts on the subject, I am not sure how valuable they are to the rest of the group. I do have my fair share of experience with ultra running and 12-hour to 3-day endurance adventure racing, and have in some way informed my training strategy through those experiences, for better or worse. <\p>

first, I am a big believer in the idea of triathlon as a single event, but I did not learn that until I started adventure racing. My coach believes that as well and hammers it into my brain every week. This time around I actually have a good bit of training mixed in to my daily workouts that are intended to aid my fitness, endurance and strength in the other legs of the race. So for example, that 1000 yards of kick drills has very little to do with my swim fitness or technique, but rather addresses my history of hip, knee and ankle fragility on the run. The high cadence drills on the run certainly have helped my run form, but the actual cadence of the drills is built around my natural race-pace cadence on the bike, bringing them both into natural alignment.

I guess a better way to say this is that some of my swim Training is actually run training, my run training is actually bike training, etc.miles. At some point when you make the move from "multisport athlete" to "endurance athlete" you just have to make the switch and count on all of your training sessions to augment each other - no one stands alone.

I have felt a lot of fatigue since tri camp. A good tri friend compared my training camp to the fatigue from doing IM without being beat up like the IM run would do to me. Last week I started feeling achy all over which makes me wonder if I'm having a Lyme's flair up. Being under trained going into camp, doing so much, being extremely fatigued, stressed, lack of sleep are things that can make Lyme act up.

Decided to take some time away from structured training meaning doing what I want and not having a plan from my coach. One day last week I dressed to go run went out side to run, stood in my driveway debating within myself...run but I didn't want to run.

I'm trying to remove the pressure and now try think each day what do I want to do that is fun.

Part of my struggle is trying to overcome my knee issues. I never thought 11 months since I injured my knee I still would be having so many issues. I still don't have full knee extension. I can get it but when fully extended I can't contract my quad. I saw my PT today and he was very helpful on many levels. I need to work on my knee hours each day whenever I can when sitting.

I'm doing some deep soul searching about tris, why I do it, what my goals are, and how to keep having fun doing this given what's going on in my life.

My Dad isn't doing well ...had a Pet scan yesterday and bone biopsy today...blood counts are going the wrong way quickly.

Kathy - I'm sorry that you're going through such a rough patch at the moment.  I think it's a good idea to step back and reassess.  In your case, I would expect that you'll find this is where you have some true passion, but sometimes we all need to remind oursleves about why we do this, and what we get out of it.

I hope things improve for your father.