SBR Utopia - OPEN (Page 8)

My training is at 5000ft in a hilly environment and my race will be at 2000ft on mostly flat terrain.  So I could train by pace but then to take that and apply it to my race would be a big variable. 

Yeah, I knew what C25K meant, was referring to "efforts."

"Efforts" likely meaning anything harder than "easy" running. 

Thank you.  That is exactly my point.

That's kind of what I thought.  Just wanted to hear it from someone with more experience than me.

Sorry, I didn't realize you changed altitude since you last tested your LTHR. If so, ignore my post, I have no idea what change of altitude would do to it.

Well, maybe I am lucky - this particular masters group has a fair number of triathletes, including the pro-card carrying coach that was busting my behind - maybe I'll take your advice and mouth off to him when I can finish anywhere within 15 minutes of him in a olympic distance tri.  We actually do get a lot of good one-on-one and lane instruction, and his question was a legitimate one: he is very used to the triathlete mindset of "why do I need to learn anything about swimming that I will not use on race day?" and he is mindful not to offer advice when it is not desired.

I am an adult onset swimmer (only started when I was 24) but I have been swimming consistently for the past 23 years. I have only been doing masters for the past year and have seen very good results that I attribute to it - in my own personal experience it is "late blooming" folks that can use it the most. I think learning the other strokes has been very beneficial to me in particular. For example, I think learning proper backstroke technique has really improved my lat utilization in the pull phase of my freestyle, and learning how to dolphin kick (as part of a still very bad butterfly) has caused me to build some much need core strength without going to a separate Pilates class. As an added bonus, getting better at all the strokes allows you to move up lanes, and really get your tail handed to you by the fishies.

FWIW I find fins to be a good tool as part of my warm-up. Those of us from a cycling and running background tend not to have the most flexible ankles, and using fins just a bit loosens them up and (for me) seems to really makes a difference during my main set. I also tend to do a lot of things during training (biking, running, AND swimming) that I don't do on race day that I believe contribute to my success when I actually do race. Lastly, my kickboard is a vital piece of training equipment: where else would I stick my workout without it???

Would really like to hear from the group re cycling cadence. I finally put the sensor on the bike and started looking at cadence for the first time. While the "n" is still low, I think it is representative of my typical effort. I'm 4 weeks into Jorge's winter plan (haven't been using TR yet) using HR/RPE. During the MS I'm averaging 80-83 rpm. 90 is the high end for sure. Overall mid 70's (I think that is somewhat effected due to the inevitable interruption where I forget to pause the watch). I know there was a pretty good group discussion ages ago on this but can't find it. Admittedly, my biggest cycling gains are going to come from riding more. Is it worth paying attention to cadence and if so....what should I be thinking about? Any useful reading?  Or, should I leave it alone and just ride? For now it will be on the trainer due to weather. 

Kim

Kim,

I actually just posted something in the main forums on the topic.  IMO, cadence is something you simply need to experiment with.  And you're not going to figure it out in one ride, in one week, or probably not even one month. 

You simply need to ride a lot, and try using different gear/cadence combinations.  You don't really need to "teach" your body how to ride at a given cadence, you simply need to let your body know that a given cadence is "available."  Once your body is familiar with the cadences it has available to use, your body will automatically select the cadence that produces the most efficiency.

A good way to test this is with a power meter.  Try to sustain a given amount of power (such as 200 watts) and flip through your gears.  Find the gear/cadence that allows you to ride at the target power at the lowest RPE.

Or you can do this with a steady group ride (read...constant power output).  Ride with the pace of the group, and again...flip through your gears to see which gear/cadence allows you to stick with the group at the lowest RPE.

Also know that there isn't one perfect cadence for all situations. 

Thanks Jason. Just read your post in TT. Both helpful. Re testing with a power meter, can I use Trainer Road ie virtual power for this?  

Yes, virtual power should be fine.  If you have a garmin, or something that can record your cadence and record laps, then this is what I would do for an experimentation trainer ride.

Warm up 10 minutes, then do 5x2 minute intervals at HIM effort, with a 2 minute break in between.  Each interval, focus on a different cadence.  Start out with what you feel is "normal"...lets say it's 83.  Try one interval at 73, one at 78, one at 88, and one at 93.  This would basically give your body a "refresher course" at what cadences you have available to you.

Now ride for 10-15 minutes at a slightly higher effort.  Maybe between HIM and Oly effort.  Completely ignore your cadence display on your computer...just shift through your gears and find a cadence that you feel is most comfortable to ride at your target wattage (read...lowest RPE).

Once you're done, go back and look at that 10-15 minute interval and see what cadence you rode at.  Set that as a "benchmark".  A couple of days later, try the same type of workout, but this time monitor your cadence for the 10-15 minute interval and shoot for something 3-5 rpms faster.  At the end of the set, evaluate to yourself if that felt "easier" or "harder" by RPE.  If it felt easier, then try the experiment again at an even higher RPE and reevaluate.  Or if it felt harder, try a lower rpm.

Eventually your body is going to recognize for itself which cadence is best, and you'll be shifting without even thinking.  But until you actually try different cadences, your body may not know there is something better out there.

Do you have a link to the plan?  Can't seem to find it.

Whoa...Easter Bunny with a Santa hat!

Fred...I always hoped you would come back to the mentor forums.  I mentioned to you already, but I completely support your idea to lead a new mentor group and think it would be best for you.  You have a great way of informing and inspiring new and experienced athletes.  That quality should be shared with as many people on BT as possible. 

NOW...DON'T FORGET MY FRIDGEN SIG LINE!!!

Jason - Here is the program overview. Here is the first 2 weeks in detail.  Thanks for looking into it.

Chris 

I would agree with a lot of what is said in the program overview.  It is definately not "the gospel" as there is more than one way to skin a cat, but I think it would be a plan worth trying out if you choose to.  I would also pay close attention to the prerequisites of having experience and a solid running background before taking something like this on.

That being said, the one thing I disagree with is focusing on single leg drills.  I personally do not see the point in them, and I can dig up a recent thread where I and a few others discussed it.

Did we just end up in the same group again?!?!

I have no cadence sensor and no power meter.  Just ride more?  I do want to improve on the bike but budget is low!  I would like a TT bike as I think I can get some speed going that way, current setup is Felt F75 with inexpensive aerobars.  I actually have no idea what my cadence is.

That group ride idea sounds like a low budget idea.  Maybe I'll get a cadence sensor although it's in the 20's here so no group rides will be happening for a while.

OK bike question.  I have a KK fluid trainer, still in the box.  But I like spin class, my buddies are there etc. and I really work hard in there, pool of sweat under my bike every time.  But will there be noticeable difference in my abilities this summer if I do trainer rides instead, assuming more or less equal effort?  I was thinking of doing Jorge's winter program.

What say you fellow Utopians?

OK, just saw Jason's comment on the TT thread about the body "self" inflicting a cadence etc. makes sense.

Yep, that's it. And don't worry about looking silly. Just ask it. That's what this is for. Surely at some point I'll ask one of the darndest things about swimming.