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Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club (Page 8)
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 2013-09-19 4:43 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran  945    South Windsor, CT |  Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Clubsorry, I was not specific enough-I use my tempo HR or pace as a rough gage of where my tempo effort or LT effort should be... yes, the LT is slightly above that and the best tempo benefit is running near/at this level Because I know my 10K RP, I can break it easily up into tempo segments of 1/2 or 3/4 miles (basically 800-1200M) and I know my pace should be near that, slightly less--yep about 10-15 seconds/mile depending on how fast you are. --------------------------------- And the numbers don't add up for a number of reasons, but mostly because of the principle of periodization. Base+/-strides//Reps//Tempo-Strength//Interval-Peaking//Taper//Race As I said previously, you have to figure out how many hard workouts your body can handle. If it is a Run only block, most athlete's can only handle 3 hard workouts/week-really most only 2 without undue injury risk. Figure out how you're going to get: Recovery/Rep/E/MP/Tempo-LT/hills/Intervals each week. You're not. Initially, it's mostly E w strides and as much Rec as needed. Later, at peak weeks, for me it's 2 hard w/o each week max: 5% Int alt w Reps/Int combo; 15%Tempo (I know, but I've learned that my body can handle it)-alt with MP; and the rest is E or Rec if needed. You transition by doing blocks or periods of training then let your body absorb the training (compensation>supercompensation). Then you can train at a slightly higher level. JD says it's best each 4-6 wks to go out and race to prove a higher vdot to use for training. 0h, and we really should consider LT and tempo similiar...the nuances are not important enough for the non-elite athlete who is unable to maximally train with volume and adequate quality/hard workouts many of us are limited by life not the workout variation It really also depends on what your focus is. If you are doing 5K racing, then volume and overdistance running is important, but you'd better be doing a lot of intervals and tempo work. Edited by dtoce 2013-09-19 4:54 PM |
| 2013-09-19 4:50 PM in reply to: dtoce |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club I'm toying with the idea of a 3rd quality workout. Especially while I am not trying to ramp up mileage. I just have to plan carefully with my race schedule. |
| 2013-09-19 5:52 PM in reply to: 0 |
Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club oh, another thing occurs to me regarding the math: remember that when you are doing an I workout: with a max of only 8% of the running at I pace, there is also a lot of easy and recovery running happening during that session that you are not counting for that day same thing with other quality days, harder efforts are alternated with easier and recovery efforts so for me, once I"m done with winter base phase (30mpw) and add tempo, MP and R workouts, this might be what I'd do: Su-LR 8 miles with 2 miles at MP and build from there-6.6% weekly mileage M-off T-4 recovery=13.3% W-4 E w strides or 4x200M reps (total 1/2mile=~2% of weekly mileage) R-6 w3 tempo (usually I start w 6x800M)-10%weekly mileage F-4 recovery-same as above Sa-4 w strides as above 30mpw R=4% E=52.8% MP=6.6% T-10% Rec=26.6% mostly E and Rec, staying below the max recommended and saving (painful) intervals for the springtime and speed/sharpening since I'm not racing 5K's anymore, usually Oly tri's and 1/2IM what I'm learning is that I can swap recovery runs for swims and have no real deficit other than loss of specificity I can even swap for an easy bike... makes designing my training a bit easier, but I try to get a brick run and a longer run with MP or tempo in often during my tri focus now Edited by dtoce 2013-09-19 6:06 PM |
| 2013-09-20 6:59 AM in reply to: dtoce |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by dtoce oh, another thing occurs to me regarding the math: remember that when you are doing an I workout: with a max of only 8% of the running at I pace, there is also a lot of easy and recovery running happening during that session that you are not counting for that day same thing with other quality days, harder efforts are alternated with easier and recovery efforts so for me, once I"m done with winter base phase (30mpw) and add tempo, MP and R workouts, this might be what I'd do: Su-LR 8 miles with 2 miles at MP and build from there-6.6% weekly mileage M-off T-4 recovery=13.3% W-4 E w strides or 4x200M reps (total 1/2mile=~2% of weekly mileage) R-6 w3 tempo (usually I start w 6x800M)-10%weekly mileage F-4 recovery-same as above Sa-4 w strides as above 30mpw R=4% E=52.8% MP=6.6% T-10% Rec=26.6% mostly E and Rec, staying below the max recommended and saving (painful) intervals for the springtime and speed/sharpening since I'm not racing 5K's anymore, usually Oly tri's and 1/2IM what I'm learning is that I can swap recovery runs for swims and have no real deficit other than loss of specificity I can even swap for an easy bike... makes designing my training a bit easier, but I try to get a brick run and a longer run with MP or tempo in often during my tri focus now Dale, that's really helpful to see. Thanks for sharing that. How did you arrive at 30mpw for your base mileage? If you are racing HIMs, what is your long run distance? When you swap swims for recovery runs, are you swimming hard? What kind of sets and yardage? |
| 2013-09-20 7:08 AM in reply to: dtoce |
Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Also, Dale, when you said "JD says it's best each 4-6 wks to go out and race to prove a higher vdot to use for training," does this apply to even marathon training? |
 2013-09-20 7:28 AM in reply to: switch |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-09-20 8:13 AM in reply to: switch |
| Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by switch How did you arrive at 30mpw for your base mileage? If you are racing HIMs, what is your long run distance? When you swap swims for recovery runs, are you swimming hard? What kind of sets and yardage? I really average between 20 and 30mpw, due to the swaps for bikes/swims, and that number is arrived at by life's limitations. If I could, I'd run 100mpw, ride 200 and swim triple what I do not.  If my legs are shelled, I do not do a swim 'workout', just swim easy as recovery to get some distance and time in the water. My swims are usually with a focus on form as I s*ck at swimming. I can swim 2 miles contiuously easy, with very little training now and I will apply the rules of run training to swims, so I'll be doing lots of 100M and 200M with ever shortening recoveries, some 400-500M at swim race pace. And get back to the OW in the spring. I have only been swimming for 2 yrs and I average or 3 swims a week. During IM training, I peaked at 4/week and 10-11K/week. Now, I only do what I need to do to maintain fitness. I'm going back into back into base run training, so I'll be doing as much easy stuff as I can fit into my schedule. For fun, I'll add in tempo runs, because I like them. My LR for the 2 1/2IM that I did this year was....10 miles....not ideal, I know. My two longest runs were 13.1, during the races. But I have a very solid base over the years of running. And Bill has nailed it regarding repeat racing. During M training, some 5K and 10K races can and should be done to adjust vdot training and to have some fun. |
| 2013-09-20 9:51 AM in reply to: switch |
Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Okay, it was just a matter of time... I finally hit the point in the book where I'm pretty sure the words were something like "blah blahblah blahblah" or (insert Peanuts teacher voice) "wawawawawawa". Seriously, I understand his concepts but when he starts "vvo2 at 76 blahblah" my eyes glaze over. I hope if I keep reading he'll just tell me what to do |
| 2013-09-20 9:58 AM in reply to: rrrunner |
| Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by rrrunner bwahahaha! I find myself rereading some paragraphs three times. Now I'm gonna be reprimanding myself with the Peanuts teacher voice. Thanks for that Okay, it was just a matter of time... I finally hit the point in the book where I'm pretty sure the words were something like "blah blahblah blahblah" or (insert Peanuts teacher voice) "wawawawawawa". Seriously, I understand his concepts but when he starts "vvo2 at 76 blahblah" my eyes glaze over. I hope if I keep reading he'll just tell me what to do  |
| 2013-09-20 10:20 AM in reply to: switch |
| Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. |
| 2013-09-20 10:35 AM in reply to: dtoce |
| Regular 5477 LHOTP | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by dtoce I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. Cool. Thanks |
| 2013-09-20 10:35 AM in reply to: switch |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by switch Originally posted by rrrunner bwahahaha! I find myself rereading some paragraphs three times. Now I'm gonna be reprimanding myself with the Peanuts teacher voice. Thanks for that Okay, it was just a matter of time... I finally hit the point in the book where I'm pretty sure the words were something like "blah blahblah blahblah" or (insert Peanuts teacher voice) "wawawawawawa". Seriously, I understand his concepts but when he starts "vvo2 at 76 blahblah" my eyes glaze over. I hope if I keep reading he'll just tell me what to do Oh, I thought you wrote wo2. Would that be w00t? |
| 2013-09-20 10:55 AM in reply to: switch |
| Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by switch Originally posted by dtoce I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. Cool. Thanks X2. It was bad enough being the slowest person in this group physically. I didn't want to be the slowest mentally too! |
| 2013-09-20 10:55 AM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by switch Originally posted by rrrunner bwahahaha! I find myself rereading some paragraphs three times. Now I'm gonna be reprimanding myself with the Peanuts teacher voice. Thanks for that Okay, it was just a matter of time... I finally hit the point in the book where I'm pretty sure the words were something like "blah blahblah blahblah" or (insert Peanuts teacher voice) "wawawawawawa". Seriously, I understand his concepts but when he starts "vvo2 at 76 blahblah" my eyes glaze over. I hope if I keep reading he'll just tell me what to do Oh, I thought you wrote wo2. Would that be w00t? Win |
| 2013-09-20 12:09 PM in reply to: dtoce |
| Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by dtoce I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. There is so much information to absorb for me that I will skip sections that are not relevant to my situation. It saves a lot of mental energy to skip things like the section on adjusting workouts after time off. It may be very relevant to someone else and someday it may become relevant to me but not now. For me, I skipped the altitude training because I do not foresee myself doing that anytime soon if ever. I'm at work so not sure what pages that was. |
| 2013-09-20 12:22 PM in reply to: dtoce |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by dtoce I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. Yeah, I agree. I'm a lot more conceptual about integrating his principles rather than following anything to the tee |
| 2013-09-20 3:09 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| NH | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by Asalzwed Originally posted by dtoce I know exactly what you mean and that is why I dislike edition 2. I think JD tried to do too much and tailored it for the elite, micromanaging the multipace training and I don't even use the vvo2 junk. My own eyes glaze over and I love this stuff...He did a great job in the first book and the concepts are solid. I never could use that point system and colors-ha! I think more would be gained if people tried to understand the major concepts of pacing and design a season plan with periodization and goals for the year. I would NOT focus on the nuances that he is hammering in version 2. Yeah, I agree. I'm a lot more conceptual about integrating his principles rather than following anything to the tee I'm with everyone on this. I also have the age thing at play. My body can only handle so much intensity without breakdown, and with tri training I try to hit the bike hard since I can't spend too many hours on this hobby. I think I'm understanding his concepts at this point and ready to plan my winter running, but I don't want to lose all the great biking gains I've made this year. How do you all deal with that? When you go on a run block, what do you do with the bike? |
| 2013-09-20 4:10 PM in reply to: wbayek |
| Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Along similar lines, I wondered how the principles in the book regarding adaptations relate to swimming and biking. I am still trying to do some of both and will through the winter. I realize that some of the adaptations are sport specific like those that affect speed and economy but what about things like endurance. How much crossover and for what types of workouts do bike/swim substitute or at least contribute to? If I am getting adaptation from swim/bike that benefit my run can I pull back on those types of run workouts and focus my limited time differently? |
| 2013-09-20 5:56 PM in reply to: popsracer |
| Veteran 945 South Windsor, CT | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by popsracer Along similar lines, I wondered how the principles in the book regarding adaptations relate to swimming and biking. I am still trying to do some of both and will through the winter. I realize that some of the adaptations are sport specific like those that affect speed and economy but what about things like endurance. How much crossover and for what types of workouts do bike/swim substitute or at least contribute to? If I am getting adaptation from swim/bike that benefit my run can I pull back on those types of run workouts and focus my limited time differently? I hope the real triathletes comment on this.. I do know that I use JDs principles in S and B training and certainly do more recovery 'runs' as easy swims or bike rides You lose some specificity but i figure if it's not a quality session, that's less important. I still think 1 or 2 quality sessions is all I can handle. I tray to alternate so that I get all 3 disciplines covered. What do others do? |
| 2013-09-23 11:37 AM in reply to: dtoce |
| Pro 6520 Bellingham, WA | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club From reading ahead, I gather that JD doesn't place tremendous value on cross-training. Training specificity is primary. He mentions some benefit to cross-training if and only if it supports your ability to train through your run workouts better. Makes some mention to cross training and weight management but he's pretty cautious there. Another thing I read and I don't have the book with me so can't reference page number is his discussion on hydration. I bring it up because I think I had a bit of a revelation yesterday during my long run and was looking for some feedback for an upcoming race. My last few marathons and my longest training runs have gone south towards the end of the runs. I have racked my brains because I've been putting in miles and keeping such a conservative pace that it just hasn't made sense to me. Anyway, JD has a method for measuring hydration needs and I was wondering if anyone has actually done anything like this to help estimate the amount of fluids you need. It involves weighing yourself before and after a run while estimating ounces of fluid intake and bathroom breaks. On my long run yesterday I took in twice the fluid that I normally do and I have not felt better at the end of a long run. I'll only have one or two more opportunities to validate this before the race. |
| 2013-09-23 11:50 AM in reply to: popsracer |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2013-09-23 12:31 PM in reply to: popsracer |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by popsracer From reading ahead, I gather that JD doesn't place tremendous value on cross-training. Training specificity is primary. He mentions some benefit to cross-training if and only if it supports your ability to train through your run workouts better. Makes some mention to cross training and weight management but he's pretty cautious there.
Simply from experience, I also don't place hardly any value on cross-training unless there is some reason where I can't (rehabbing an injury for example.) There is nothing better for your running than running itself. |
| 2013-09-23 1:03 PM in reply to: Asalzwed |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club I'm thinking we should wrap up conversations around Part I by Wednesday and move on to Part II. Take a moment to skim and reread anything you might have struggled with and feel free to post your questions or comments!
There's been lots of great stuff so far. Thanks everyone that has participated! |
| 2013-09-23 3:50 PM in reply to: popsracer |
| Master 6595 Rio Rancho, NM | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by popsracer From reading ahead, I gather that JD doesn't place tremendous value on cross-training. Training specificity is primary. He mentions some benefit to cross-training if and only if it supports your ability to train through your run workouts better. Makes some mention to cross training and weight management but he's pretty cautious there. Another thing I read and I don't have the book with me so can't reference page number is his discussion on hydration. I bring it up because I think I had a bit of a revelation yesterday during my long run and was looking for some feedback for an upcoming race. My last few marathons and my longest training runs have gone south towards the end of the runs. I have racked my brains because I've been putting in miles and keeping such a conservative pace that it just hasn't made sense to me. Anyway, JD has a method for measuring hydration needs and I was wondering if anyone has actually done anything like this to help estimate the amount of fluids you need. It involves weighing yourself before and after a run while estimating ounces of fluid intake and bathroom breaks. On my long run yesterday I took in twice the fluid that I normally do and I have not felt better at the end of a long run. I'll only have one or two more opportunities to validate this before the race. I agree with both of your points. On the cross-training thing, realizing he is aiming his writing at runners, it makes me wonder about how to use the time spent running, especially since we also incorporate biking and swimming. As for the hydration, I wondered about this too. The last 3 miles of my 10.5 mile run on Saturday were a death march and I wonder whether to blame my training (which has unquestionably been a fast increase in distance), my shoes or my hydration. I guess the trick is to change one thing at a time and figure out what works. I've never tried weighing myself before/after. |
| 2013-09-23 4:35 PM in reply to: rrrunner |
| Seattle | Subject: RE: Sept 15-Oct 15 "Daniel's Running Formula" Book Club Originally posted by rrrunner Originally posted by popsracer From reading ahead, I gather that JD doesn't place tremendous value on cross-training. Training specificity is primary. He mentions some benefit to cross-training if and only if it supports your ability to train through your run workouts better. Makes some mention to cross training and weight management but he's pretty cautious there. Another thing I read and I don't have the book with me so can't reference page number is his discussion on hydration. I bring it up because I think I had a bit of a revelation yesterday during my long run and was looking for some feedback for an upcoming race. My last few marathons and my longest training runs have gone south towards the end of the runs. I have racked my brains because I've been putting in miles and keeping such a conservative pace that it just hasn't made sense to me. Anyway, JD has a method for measuring hydration needs and I was wondering if anyone has actually done anything like this to help estimate the amount of fluids you need. It involves weighing yourself before and after a run while estimating ounces of fluid intake and bathroom breaks. On my long run yesterday I took in twice the fluid that I normally do and I have not felt better at the end of a long run. I'll only have one or two more opportunities to validate this before the race. I agree with both of your points. On the cross-training thing, realizing he is aiming his writing at runners, it makes me wonder about how to use the time spent running, especially since we also incorporate biking and swimming. As for the hydration, I wondered about this too. The last 3 miles of my 10.5 mile run on Saturday were a death march and I wonder whether to blame my training (which has unquestionably been a fast increase in distance), my shoes or my hydration. I guess the trick is to change one thing at a time and figure out what works. I've never tried weighing myself before/after. You could just switch to running exclusively I think that is the biggest challenge in triathlon -- the management of progressing in all 3 sports simultaneously. They key probably lies more in how to get as many quality workouts as possible with adequate recovery, in all 3 sports, every week. I definitely think you can translate the concepts we learn in Running Formula to the other two sports but the quality/recovery balance is going to be extremely individual. With the idea of active recovery in mind, in the context of triathlon, I believe you can sub out a "recovery run" for say, a swim. I just wouldn't do that when exclusively running.
I've never done a sweat rate test. I always wondered, what do you do about the sweat that is trapped in your hair? Is it just not enough to matter?
I drink between 100-120 oz. of water every day.
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