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 2014-01-14 3:56 PM in reply to: goricky |
Pro  4675     Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro |  Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN)Originally posted by goricky Last night, I swam 1.5 miles which was my farthest ever, so I was pretty stoked! Erika
Excellent!!!!!! |
| 2014-01-14 4:48 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) How do you block quote the person's note that you are responding too???? Re: how did I determine I was a "train low" athlete...he gave us a quiz with a number of questions. Then, we tallied our scores and that determined which type of trainer we were. I imagine the guru guy has something like that in his materials. (Bob Seebohar) If not, and anyone's interested, I'll see if I can round up the quiz and scoring system for you. It really made sense for me. In my 20's and 30's, I did well with lots of carbs; but in my 40's (and almost 50's) not so much. I think he's spot on for me (and those like me) but time will tell. I'm trying his recommendations...basically a modified Paleo (adding limited quinoa, steel cut oats, trail mix, greek yogurt, etc) and using the real food plus UCan on the long workouts/races. I won't miss those gels one bit if it works... I'll keep you posted!
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| 2014-01-14 6:44 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Official BT Coach 18500  Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by Hubbie Hello everyone. I've been a bit of a lurker but I've been training and reading all the posts. The ones about bricks and consistency where very helpful. Today I did a 2050 meter swim that is on my training schedule. I noticed that sounds the 1500 meter mark my hand started to hurt and it got worse the more I swam. The pain was mostly from my wrists to the outside of my hand to my pinky and ring fingers. I tried relaxing my hands and different hand positions on my catch and pull. Still had a lot of pain that remained for about an hour after leaving the water. Has anyone else dealt with this? Any suggestions on how to fix this? Or is this just a signal that my hands are weak and I need to make them stronger? Personally, I have never had this issue but perhaps Scott can chime in here if he might have some insight. Actually, the first thing that popped into my head is whether you have a problem resulting from a non-related issue such as carpal tunnel syndrome from typing on a keyboard, or some other trauma, and perhaps swimming is aggravating it? What is your hand position during the catch and pull? (I am referring to your actual hand position, is it flat, cupped, fingers apart, fingers tight, etc.) Is the pain in both hands or just one? Can you characterize the pain? (Sharp, dull, throbbing, etc.) Is the pain more like a cramp? Have you had the pain before? A bit more information and then maybe we can figure out what is going on. However, I have to say, my first thought is either cramping or something unrelated to swimming.
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| 2014-01-14 7:54 PM in reply to: k9car363 |
Veteran 487 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by Hubbie Hello everyone. I've been a bit of a lurker but I've been training and reading all the posts. The ones about bricks and consistency where very helpful. Today I did a 2050 meter swim that is on my training schedule. I noticed that sounds the 1500 meter mark my hand started to hurt and it got worse the more I swam. The pain was mostly from my wrists to the outside of my hand to my pinky and ring fingers. I tried relaxing my hands and different hand positions on my catch and pull. Still had a lot of pain that remained for about an hour after leaving the water. Has anyone else dealt with this? Any suggestions on how to fix this? Or is this just a signal that my hands are weak and I need to make them stronger? Personally, I have never had this issue but perhaps Scott can chime in here if he might have some insight. Actually, the first thing that popped into my head is whether you have a problem resulting from a non-related issue such as carpal tunnel syndrome from typing on a keyboard, or some other trauma, and perhaps swimming is aggravating it? What is your hand position during the catch and pull? (I am referring to your actual hand position, is it flat, cupped, fingers apart, fingers tight, etc.) Is the pain in both hands or just one? Can you characterize the pain? (Sharp, dull, throbbing, etc.) Is the pain more like a cramp? Have you had the pain before? A bit more information and then maybe we can figure out what is going on. However, I have to say, my first thought is either cramping or something unrelated to swimming.
The pain is in both hands. Its a like a constant dull and throbbing pain that increaes the more I swim. Even when I shake out my hands the pain is still there. I hold my hands in a slightly cupped position and when I slid my hand in the water I try to think of putting my hand in a mail slot. So its a smooth motion and I try not to slap my hand on the water. I try to think of not breaking to much suface tension at once. Hope this helps. |
| 2014-01-14 9:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by goricky How do you block quote the person's note that you are responding too???? Click the "QUOTE" button at the bottom of the frame of the person's post. Wait for the editor to pop up the quote screen and you will then see the person's quote embedded between 2 "/QUOTE/" thingees (can't think of a word to describe them - I had to use a slash instead of brackets [ ] so it wouldn't treat it as a quote and mess up my post). You can retain their entire post or delete portions that aren't related to what you intend to post underneath theirs...as I did with your original post. Edited by Birkierunner 2014-01-14 9:37 PM |
| 2014-01-14 11:37 PM in reply to: Hubbie |
Official BT Coach 18500 Indianapolis, Indiana Gold member | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Hubbie Originally posted by k9car363 The pain is in both hands. Its a like a constant dull and throbbing pain that increaes the more I swim. Even when I shake out my hands the pain is still there. I hold my hands in a slightly cupped position and when I slid my hand in the water I try to think of putting my hand in a mail slot. So its a smooth motion and I try not to slap my hand on the water. I try to think of not breaking to much suface tension at once. Hope this helps. Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by Hubbie Hello everyone. I've been a bit of a lurker but I've been training and reading all the posts. The ones about bricks and consistency where very helpful. Today I did a 2050 meter swim that is on my training schedule. I noticed that sounds the 1500 meter mark my hand started to hurt and it got worse the more I swam. The pain was mostly from my wrists to the outside of my hand to my pinky and ring fingers. I tried relaxing my hands and different hand positions on my catch and pull. Still had a lot of pain that remained for about an hour after leaving the water. Has anyone else dealt with this? Any suggestions on how to fix this? Or is this just a signal that my hands are weak and I need to make them stronger? Personally, I have never had this issue but perhaps Scott can chime in here if he might have some insight. Actually, the first thing that popped into my head is whether you have a problem resulting from a non-related issue such as carpal tunnel syndrome from typing on a keyboard, or some other trauma, and perhaps swimming is aggravating it? What is your hand position during the catch and pull? (I am referring to your actual hand position, is it flat, cupped, fingers apart, fingers tight, etc.) Is the pain in both hands or just one? Can you characterize the pain? (Sharp, dull, throbbing, etc.) Is the pain more like a cramp? Have you had the pain before? A bit more information and then maybe we can figure out what is going on. However, I have to say, my first thought is either cramping or something unrelated to swimming.
Here is my two cents. I will give you my opinion, explain my rationale, and then offer a couple things you might try. Jim, I will be curious to know your thoughts on all of this also. I think the pain is probably cramping brought about by poor swim fitness and improper technique (sorry, no easy way to say that). I looked at your training logs for the last few months. You had no swimming in November, a little bit in December and now you are ramping up fairly quickly in January. I would like to contrast that to what we (we, collectively the team) did back in the day when I was swimming. At the height of my career, we were putting in 12-15,000 meters/day, 7 days a week, something like 350,000 meters/month. After short course nationals (early December), we would take two weeks off. Didn't even look at a pool, let alone train. After long course nationals (end of summer), we would take three weeks off. Same thing, didn't even look at a pool. After both breaks, when we came back, we did 2-3 weeks of technique training. It was generally something along the lines of 1,000 meters, three times a week (M/W/F). FAR cry from 15,000 meters! The goal of that 2-3 week phase was a) develop absolutely PERFECT stroke technique, and b) ease back into training. We did NOT just jump in the water and suddenly ramp our yardage up. We eased into it in SMALL gradual steps. This was for a team of swimmers, ALL of whom had qualified for a national championship at some point and were accustomed to putting in upwards of 12,000 meters/day. How much more important might it be for the average triathlete to similarly ease back in to swimming with the same focus on technique at the beginning of the season? Your comment, "I hold my hands in a slightly cupped position and when I slid my hand in the water I try to think of putting my hand in a mail slot," and your times from your log (assuming they are correct) lead me to believe that there may be some room for improvement in your stroke technique (of course that is true for ALL of us). On my website, I have an article about the catch and pull. It also covers the entry in detail and includes a couple pictures showing proper hand position. If you are interested, you can find the article at http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/38-the-catch-and-pull. My suggestion would be to take the next couple weeks, work on developing PERFECT technique. Workouts would be something like, 200 EASY warm-up, followed by 12 x 50 @ 1:00 rest between reps, then 200 EASY cool-down. During the rest periods, visualize perfect technique. The ENTIRE focus is to develop PERFECT technique and commit it to muscle memory. Pace is absolutely NOT a consideration during this initial phase. If you fatigue to the point that your technique begins to break down, get out of the pool and try again tomorrow. I am absolutely serious when I say that. At this point, the most important thing is to develop proper technique. After the 're-introduction' phase, I would move in to 4-6 weeks of extensive endurance training, by which I mean sets that, in total, are 1.5-2.0 times your planned race swim distance, 3 times, preferably 4 times per week (For example, if you are planning an Olympic tri, the swim is +/- 1,500 meters. Your extensive endurance sessions should build up to 2,250-3,000 meters). After the extensive endurance phase you would move in to some intermediate endurance and speed work (the dreaded vomit reps!). If you don't have a swim coach, I would STRONGLY recommend you get one. There is simply no substitute for eyes on deck. Good luck, hope that helps. |
| 2014-01-15 12:52 AM in reply to: k9car363 |
Veteran 487 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by k9car363 Originally posted by Hubbie Originally posted by k9car363 The pain is in both hands. Its a like a constant dull and throbbing pain that increaes the more I swim. Even when I shake out my hands the pain is still there. I hold my hands in a slightly cupped position and when I slid my hand in the water I try to think of putting my hand in a mail slot. So its a smooth motion and I try not to slap my hand on the water. I try to think of not breaking to much suface tension at once. Hope this helps. Originally posted by Birkierunner Originally posted by Hubbie Hello everyone. I've been a bit of a lurker but I've been training and reading all the posts. The ones about bricks and consistency where very helpful. Today I did a 2050 meter swim that is on my training schedule. I noticed that sounds the 1500 meter mark my hand started to hurt and it got worse the more I swam. The pain was mostly from my wrists to the outside of my hand to my pinky and ring fingers. I tried relaxing my hands and different hand positions on my catch and pull. Still had a lot of pain that remained for about an hour after leaving the water. Has anyone else dealt with this? Any suggestions on how to fix this? Or is this just a signal that my hands are weak and I need to make them stronger? Personally, I have never had this issue but perhaps Scott can chime in here if he might have some insight. Actually, the first thing that popped into my head is whether you have a problem resulting from a non-related issue such as carpal tunnel syndrome from typing on a keyboard, or some other trauma, and perhaps swimming is aggravating it? What is your hand position during the catch and pull? (I am referring to your actual hand position, is it flat, cupped, fingers apart, fingers tight, etc.) Is the pain in both hands or just one? Can you characterize the pain? (Sharp, dull, throbbing, etc.) Is the pain more like a cramp? Have you had the pain before? A bit more information and then maybe we can figure out what is going on. However, I have to say, my first thought is either cramping or something unrelated to swimming.
Here is my two cents. I will give you my opinion, explain my rationale, and then offer a couple things you might try. Jim, I will be curious to know your thoughts on all of this also. I think the pain is probably cramping brought about by poor swim fitness and improper technique (sorry, no easy way to say that). I looked at your training logs for the last few months. You had no swimming in November, a little bit in December and now you are ramping up fairly quickly in January. I would like to contrast that to what we (we, collectively the team) did back in the day when I was swimming. At the height of my career, we were putting in 12-15,000 meters/day, 7 days a week, something like 350,000 meters/month. After short course nationals (early December), we would take two weeks off. Didn't even look at a pool, let alone train. After long course nationals (end of summer), we would take three weeks off. Same thing, didn't even look at a pool. After both breaks, when we came back, we did 2-3 weeks of technique training. It was generally something along the lines of 1,000 meters, three times a week (M/W/F). FAR cry from 15,000 meters! The goal of that 2-3 week phase was a) develop absolutely PERFECT stroke technique, and b) ease back into training. We did NOT just jump in the water and suddenly ramp our yardage up. We eased into it in SMALL gradual steps. This was for a team of swimmers, ALL of whom had qualified for a national championship at some point and were accustomed to putting in upwards of 12,000 meters/day. How much more important might it be for the average triathlete to similarly ease back in to swimming with the same focus on technique at the beginning of the season? Your comment, "I hold my hands in a slightly cupped position and when I slid my hand in the water I try to think of putting my hand in a mail slot," and your times from your log (assuming they are correct) lead me to believe that there may be some room for improvement in your stroke technique (of course that is true for ALL of us). On my website, I have an article about the catch and pull. It also covers the entry in detail and includes a couple pictures showing proper hand position. If you are interested, you can find the article at http://goscottgo.info/index.php/swimming-technique/38-the-catch-and-pull. My suggestion would be to take the next couple weeks, work on developing PERFECT technique. Workouts would be something like, 200 EASY warm-up, followed by 12 x 50 @ 1:00 rest between reps, then 200 EASY cool-down. During the rest periods, visualize perfect technique. The ENTIRE focus is to develop PERFECT technique and commit it to muscle memory. Pace is absolutely NOT a consideration during this initial phase. If you fatigue to the point that your technique begins to break down, get out of the pool and try again tomorrow. I am absolutely serious when I say that. At this point, the most important thing is to develop proper technique. After the 're-introduction' phase, I would move in to 4-6 weeks of extensive endurance training, by which I mean sets that, in total, are 1.5-2.0 times your planned race swim distance, 3 times, preferably 4 times per week (For example, if you are planning an Olympic tri, the swim is +/- 1,500 meters. Your extensive endurance sessions should build up to 2,250-3,000 meters). After the extensive endurance phase you would move in to some intermediate endurance and speed work (the dreaded vomit reps!). If you don't have a swim coach, I would STRONGLY recommend you get one. There is simply no substitute for eyes on deck. Good luck, hope that helps. Thanks!!! That does help a lot. Yes its true Im new at getting back in the water after four months off. Probably should not have taken so much time off. To be frank, I really don't like swimming and put up with it just so I can get on my bike, which is my best of the three sports. I'll look at your website here in a few minutes. I'll take any help I can get. As far as a swim coach the closest one is 90 miles away. There is one coach here that do the boys swim team and he does not take on other people. Sadly I'm neather male or a high school student.  |
| 2014-01-15 12:50 PM in reply to: k9car363 |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by k9car363 At the height of my career, we were putting in 12-15,000 meters/day, 7 days a week, something like 350,000 meters/month. O.......M.......G......that's all I've got to say about that........ :-) |
| 2014-01-15 12:55 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Here's a revised group member list
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| 2014-01-15 7:05 PM in reply to: goricky |
Member 213 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by goricky , I'm training with a friend who is doing the CdA IM in June, so I'm trying to see if my body will withstand that kind of mileage and my schedule will accommodate that kind of time. It's a nice way to test the waters for a "someday IM" and I figure it will just make me stronger in Calgary. I am in the "train-low" group, so I asked how the GU gels work into that...they don't. He said to try real food - a potato and salt, trail mix, Generation UCan with homemade nut butter (nuts and salt). I'm going to give it a whirl and see how I feel. I did gain weight last season, and I am wondering if it was because of all the carbs and chemicals that go into the GUs, Accelerade, and Cliff Bars... [/QUOTE Erika, I did the same thing before my ironman last year (my first). I basically did the full ironman training in 2012 for my half ironman race. Did it just to find out whether I could fit all the training into my life. It worked obviously (and it will likely work for you too). Its amazing how much time in a day you can find when you really look for it. And then going in to 2013 I knew what to expect. That being said my long race this year is half ironman and I'm only training for that distance this time around. Unlike those crazy people that do a full IM every year (like Jim  ) I need a rest! Also, I'm not so sure about the whole train-low thing, but I do totally agree with going with real food. Of course everyone is different, but I did great on last year without any goo type product ( lived on dates, pretzels and almond butter). - Todd |
| 2014-01-16 7:08 AM in reply to: trei |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Curious who in the group is training with some type of power meter for the bike? What type/brand? Use it in training and racing or just training? GPS on the run? |
| 2014-01-16 8:28 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) One thing I am faced with when coaching athlete's that are not local is providing guidance on basic bike maintenance and repair (not that I'm an expert to begin with). A very valuable online resource I found when I first started triathlons is the Park Tool website. They have a section of the site (click here) that provides tutorials on various aspects of bike repair/maintenance. They have a neat feature where you simply point to a location on the bike where you need information and it takes you to the library of tutorials for that portion of the bike. Check it out. Another site is (or was, I think he died?) by Sheldon Brown. Lots of information on the site (click here) but it can be a little intimidating for beginners. Edited by Birkierunner 2014-01-16 8:38 AM |
| 2014-01-16 8:29 AM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Curious who in the group is training with some type of power meter for the bike? What type/brand? Use it in training and racing or just training? GPS on the run? No electronics/power meter/GPS for me. I have an old school timex stopwatch that needs a new battery, but that's about it. And just for the record, I don't use it in races. |
| 2014-01-16 10:28 AM in reply to: trei |
| Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by trei Originally posted by goricky , I'm training with a friend who is doing the CdA IM in June, so I'm trying to see if my body will withstand that kind of mileage and my schedule will accommodate that kind of time. It's a nice way to test the waters for a "someday IM" and I figure it will just make me stronger in Calgary. I am in the "train-low" group, so I asked how the GU gels work into that...they don't. He said to try real food - a potato and salt, trail mix, Generation UCan with homemade nut butter (nuts and salt). I'm going to give it a whirl and see how I feel. I did gain weight last season, and I am wondering if it was because of all the carbs and chemicals that go into the GUs, Accelerade, and Cliff Bars... [/QUOTE Erika, I did the same thing before my ironman last year (my first). I basically did the full ironman training in 2012 for my half ironman race. Did it just to find out whether I could fit all the training into my life. It worked obviously (and it will likely work for you too). Its amazing how much time in a day you can find when you really look for it. And then going in to 2013 I knew what to expect. That being said my long race this year is half ironman and I'm only training for that distance this time around. Unlike those crazy people that do a full IM every year (like Jim ) I need a rest! Also, I'm not so sure about the whole train-low thing, but I do totally agree with going with real food. Of course everyone is different, but I did great on last year without any goo type product ( lived on dates, pretzels and almond butter). - Todd Thanks Todd! Good to know that someone else was nutty enough to train for a full when doing a half...and that you survived it! |
Good too to know about the real food success. I'll try the dates, pretzels and almond butter...I made my own almond butter last weekend...stick almonds and sea salt in the food processor and run till you can't stand it anymore...seriously, like 10 minutes. Eventually, magically, it turns to butter...and it was good! Gotta pick up some pretzels. How do you carry the real food for a long run though???| 2014-01-16 11:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2811 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by Birkierunner Curious who in the group is training with some type of power meter for the bike? What type/brand? Use it in training and racing or just training? GPS on the run? I use GPS/Heart Rate on run and bike. Although I have been doing most of my runs on the treadmill this winter. My road has been treacherous since November, the first and last half mile of any outdoor run is on an inch of ice, and I hate running on Yaks Traks. The bike has been on the trainer since October. The fall was too brutal to ride outside much. I use the Timex Ironman GPS and hate it . I should have purchased the Garmin. Edited by JBacarella 2014-01-16 11:28 AM |
| 2014-01-16 7:05 PM in reply to: JBacarella |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Another training question for everyone. As part of my usual training routine, I do a 60min interval session on my treadmill. It goes like this: 5 mins warm-up jog/run, 10x2.5 min sprints with 2.5 min rest in between intervals, and 5 min cooldown jog/run. So, my question to the group is this: what do you think about the length of the intervals and the rest in between. I've seen a number of interval routines that have shorter intervals and also shorter rest in between. I think my rest in between might be a bit long, but it's easy to keep track of on the treadmill. What do you think? Thanks, Brian |
| 2014-01-17 7:20 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2811 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by LarchmontTri Another training question for everyone. As part of my usual training routine, I do a 60min interval session on my treadmill. It goes like this: 5 mins warm-up jog/run, 10x2.5 min sprints with 2.5 min rest in between intervals, and 5 min cooldown jog/run. So, my question to the group is this: what do you think about the length of the intervals and the rest in between. I've seen a number of interval routines that have shorter intervals and also shorter rest in between. I think my rest in between might be a bit long, but it's easy to keep track of on the treadmill. What do you think? Thanks, Brian Brian, When I do intervals on the treadmill, I run a 3 minute warm up a 3 minute cool, 2 minute intervals (usually hard, kind of a long fartlik) with a 2 minute rest. I don't know if the .5 minute makes a difference. The 2 minutes is about what I need to bring my heart rate down. If I am actually running a fartlek and the hard intervals are sprints, then everything is shortened to about a minute and the recovery portion is a lot slower pace. It just depends on what point of the interval is. If I find I am fully recovered and still have a lot of time left on the down interval, then I will increase speed on the next up, if the point of the run is to increase pace. If the point is something like a builder or speed challenge, where each interval is supposed to get faster, then, I might leave it alone, because I know the next interval is going to be faster, or I will increase my pace on the recovery portion. If it feels like you are either going too slow or its taking too long on the recovery, you should probably increase the challenge. That is a good sign, because it means your fitness is increasing. Edited by JBacarella 2014-01-17 7:22 AM |
| 2014-01-17 8:00 AM in reply to: JBacarella |
Master 2500 Crab Cake City | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Brian I have yet to do speed interval runs on the treadmill, only on the track. Usually when I do them, its something like a ladder set (up & down) fromm 200m-800m @ 5k pace or just under 5k pace with an equal distance cool down lap in between. When I have done intervals on the treadmill, I usually increase the incline every few minutes to simulate some hill work. One of the workouts I have done is to start at a decent pace for 5min as a warm up. Then every 5 minutes, I increase the incline by 5 and also increase the speed by 1 whole level. I do that until I max out at the incline and then do the same thing coming back so by the time I get back to flat running, I am doing about 5k pace or sub 5k pace. It might take a few times to figure out your numbers but its a good workout IMO. |
| 2014-01-17 9:25 AM in reply to: LarchmontTri |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by LarchmontTri Another training question for everyone. As part of my usual training routine, I do a 60min interval session on my treadmill. It goes like this: 5 mins warm-up jog/run, 10x2.5 min sprints with 2.5 min rest in between intervals, and 5 min cooldown jog/run. So, my question to the group is this: what do you think about the length of the intervals and the rest in between. I've seen a number of interval routines that have shorter intervals and also shorter rest in between. I think my rest in between might be a bit long, but it's easy to keep track of on the treadmill. What do you think? Thanks, Brian One thing I would recommend to you (and others that described their workouts) right off the bat is that you need to warm up MUCH more than you are currently doing. 5 minutes is not an adequate warmup and I would recommend you do closer to 15 minutes. I realize time limitations make short warmups more attractive but if you are attempting to do fast interval work you absolutely need to make sure your muscles are prepared to take on the pace you will be attempting. This is the easiest way to prevent injuries from these types of workouts. As for the length of intervals and recovery periods, it totally depends on the intent of the workout...is it more of a lactate threshold/critical velocity paced workout or a faster VO2max pace workout? You might ask, "how do I know which one I should be doing?" the answer is, "it depends". What is your weakness? As I described in a response to an earlier question you determine what your weakness is by field testing. Are you better at a short test distance or a long test distance? If your workout is focusing on lactate threshold/critical velocity your workout might look something like 3:30 at T pace with a 1:30 recovery. If its a faster VO2max workout you might do something like 30-60 seconds with a 2-2.5 minute recovery. Note the shorter recovery time with the T paced workout versus the longer recovery time in the more intense VO2max workout. You should still do a proper warm-down but you can probably get by with a shorter warm-down if there is a time limitation. |
| 2014-01-17 2:29 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Member 213 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Erika, I actually don't eat much on the run. I try to get 90% of my nutrition in on the bike. I don't eat a whole lot on the run. I think that forgetting to eat on the bike and then trying to "catch up" on the run is the reason a lot of people run into problems on the run. Maybe Jim you could speak to this also (feel free to disagree too if that is the case). At any rate, I think you will like the "whole foods" option. I have no scientific study to back this up, but my feeling is the GU gels are maybe good for shorter distance stuff (that being said I don't use them at all) because they do give you the carb rush, but over the long hauls I would rather have a slow burn, not a constant "surge and crash" if you will. Jim, in answer to your question; I have only used a cadence sensor and heart rate monitor so far on the bike. I don't have a power meter. I do train completely based on time (not mileage), but I hardly look at my watch during a race except at the end. I am thinking I will look at getting a Garmin sometime in the future though. Thanks for the links to bike maintenance and repair. So far my forays into the area have only been changing flats. Which knock on wood so far has not happened during a race because I am not very fast at it! I also want to thank you again for your post on the transition bags for IM in the previous mentor group. It was an immense help. Now for one of my goofy questions: What are people doing to keep their hair from totally frying from the pool chlorine. Mine was like straw last year by the end. I actually finally ended up shaving it off and starting over. Any suggestions? Also, I have made it a goal to record my resting heart rate when I first wake up in the morning, but I'm not sure what to do with that information or what it tells me. Any links on that info would be appreciated. -Todd |
| 2014-01-17 2:44 PM in reply to: trei |
| Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) What are people doing to keep their hair from totally frying from the pool chlorine. Mine was like straw last year by the end. I actually finally ended up shaving it off and starting over. Any suggestions? Also, I have made it a goal to record my resting heart rate when I first wake up in the morning, but I'm not sure what to do with that information or what it tells me. Any links on that info would be appreciated. -Todd
Thanks for the nutrition thoughts Todd! Regarding hair, I have long, thick hair and worry about damage in the pool too. I heard somewhere that if you get it wet before you put on your cap, it absorbs less water in the pool. I don't know if that is true or not, but it does seem to help. Also, I usually put some conditioner on it before I put my cap on...that way, it is well conditioned, instead of well fried, when I come out. I also use two caps (b/c my hair is so long)...a lycra one and then a normal one. I don't know if that matters for chemicals and drying, but it is what I do. Maybe it helps keep the pulling and breaking at a minimum, I don't know. I do know, my hair seems to be keeping in good shape, despite the time in the water... I think they make special hair products for swimmers too. I don't use those, but you might look into them on one of the swim gear websites. Here is one I found: http://www.swimoutlet.com/Shampoos_Conditioners_s/302.htm?Search=shampoo
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| 2014-01-17 10:10 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
| Member 763 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Jim/Jim/Matt - thanks for your thoughts on intervals. I think I'm going to try 3 min intervals w/2 mins rbi next time. I typically use the random program on my treadmill, so sometimes the intervals are that much more difficult because of the incline. And I usually start off at a very fast pace, and increase it to as fast as possible/"balls to the wall" speed as I move through my workout. Jim Kelly - 5 min warmup? Agree that it's not all that much. I generally try to take a few minutes each morning to stretch, so I'm not starting totally 'cold'. But you're right, time constraints are the big concern. And in terms of your question about what's the intent of my interval workout...I think it's the lactate threshold one (though to be honest, I wasn't thinking about that or V02 max when I started doing intervals, and i'm not really sure what the difference is anyway.) My logic is this: I can run pretty far right now (12ish miles) at a decent pace, but want to increase my pace. So, pushing myself to increase my ability to run fast via intervals seemed like a pretty good idea, and the longer interval made sense to me because our races are all about endurance and shorter 30 sec intervals seemed too short. I think I'm on the right path with this, because when I run outside I try to include some hills and since i've been doing my intervals, my ability to 'attack' the hills, for example, has vastly improved. Granted, it's hard to say that the intervals are the sole reason why I'm getting stronger as a runner, but I think they are a major factor. I hit the pool this evening for 2,000 (felt really good, I think I was in the zone tonight) and hope to get in a long run or brick tomorrow and then my usual Sunday night 'date' with my bike for a 90 min session of biking (18.5mph-ish pace) and reading the weekend newspapers. Hope everybody has a good weekend, and a good weekend of training. |
| 2014-01-18 2:14 PM in reply to: Birkierunner |
Expert 1023 , | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Hey folks, sorry I've been out of touch, but I've been a little busy. i am really enjoying my run focused training right now. I love running in the cold weather. It doesn't get super cold here like it does for some of you, but I've had a couple of zero degree runs, and I find them really invigorating. I am quite lucky to have no breathing issues in the cold. Originally posted by Birkierunner Curious who in the group is training with some type of power meter for the bike? What type/brand? Use it in training and racing or just training? GPS on the run? I got a Powertap last year, but didn't make great use of the data it gave me. I just started the Coggan's book on training with a power meter. so hopefully i will get a little more value with it this season. It's only 4 months until my first multii sport race of the year which is a duathlon with a very challenging bike, so I really need to get more serious about my bike training. I haven't raced with it because I have a Renn Disc I use for racing. I use a GPS (Garmin 405, or 910xt) for running. I don't look at it much while I'm running, but I do like looking at the data after. I have it set to 1 mile autolaps,which gives me a little more info and i like to compare different runs to get an idea of how I am doing. I don't use a heart rate monitor; I go more by feel. Anthony |
| 2014-01-18 8:14 PM in reply to: trei |
Pro 4675 Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) Originally posted by trei I also want to thank you again for your post on the transition bags for IM in the previous mentor group. It was an immense help. . -Todd Todd, I dug out my post from last year that you mentioned and pasted below: I'll go over bike and run gear bags in addition to special needs for those who haven't done an IM. At check-in you will get all of your bags that are usually color coded for each of the different purposes. You will be given a sheet of decals with your race number that you have to affix to all of the bags. Here are all the bags you will be given: morning clothes bag, bike gear bag, run gear bag, bike special needs, and run special needs.
The bike and run gear bags are dropped off the day BEFORE the race. Each race is different as to how they set up transition areas, bag drop-off, etc and will be outlined in the athlete guide published about a month before the race. There will be separate areas to drop off your bike and gear bags. Even though you have to drop off these 2 bags the day before the race you will be allowed last-minute access prior to race start the next morning to put in anything you may have forgotten or to put in bottles on your fuel belt for the run. I prefer to put run bottles in the bag in the morning versus day before. When you drop off these bags you will find the location based on signs for ranges of bib numbers. Find your location for your bags and then note the general location of the bag in relation to the entire transition area. This will help you orient yourself in the morning, so note which row number and how far up the row your bag is located. Its handy to have a small headlamp to have for the morning when you are checking your bike, putting water bottles on, checking bike computer, checking tire pressure, etc. Having one of those small headlamps provides light in the darkness of the pre-race and keeps you hands free. Morning clothes bag - place all the items you will need at the finish line (dry clothes, keys, etc). This bag is dropped off near the start line or near transition (depending on race) at designated spots/boxes/barrels based on your bib number. Bike gear bag - this bag holds everything you will need for the bike leg. Don't include anything that won't be absolutely needed, such as a pump. The obvious things are helmet, bike shoes, sunglasses, race number belt with bib number attached, whatever clothes you will need to put on dependent on weather, any food you want to eat before jumping on the bike. Most (if not all) IM races do not allow you to clip your shoes on your bike prior to the race. Run gear bag - this bag holds everything you will need for the run leg. Obvious things are running shoes, socks (I put mine in a ziplock bag to keep them dry), hat or visor, fuel belt or hydration belt if you use one, any clothes you will need to put on dependent on weather, any food you want to eat before you start the run. I usually put in an extra race number belt with bib attached as a backup in case the one you put on for the bike gets damaged or water-logged in the rain during the bike (not all bibs are waterproof). My bib number got totally destroyed on the bike at my first IM at IM WI....torrential rains and wind all day and the bib they provided didn't hold up very well. I think most races have durable bib numbers now. You can also include sunscreen in both of the above bags but there are usually designated areas in transition where volunteers are located to put sunscreen on you.
On race morning you will drop off your special needs bike and run bags at designated areas based on bib number. Each race is different and where the bags are located for the race is also different. Some races have these bags located near the transition area if they bike and run courses loop back towards transition. Other races will haul off the bike and run bags and have them located near the halfway point of the bike and run legs. As you approach these areas spotters will ask for or notice your bib number so they can yell it down the line and have volunteers get your bag ready as you approach. The content of the bike and run special needs bags are highly individual based on the racer. I will jot down what I put in mine but you may want other things. One thing to keep in mind for the contents of these bags is that you shouldn't put anything in them that you don't mind losing forever. Some races will not bring the bags back to the finish where you can pick them up so don't count on it. However, I've had good luck with getting these bags back at all races that I've done. Bike special needs - I put in a spare CO2 cartridge, spare tubular, a lightweight rain jacket and whatever energy product I want. In some races I have actually put full bottles of energy drink in the bag if the race offers a drink something other than what I want, but I would recommend using and training with what the race offers. Run special needs - extra pair of socks (in ziplock), whatever body lube you use for chaffing, whatever clothes you might want to put on for the second half of run dependent on weather especially if you expect it to cool off in the dark, whatever energy products you want to have available. A volunteer will assist you at the finish to get your medal, tee shirt, photo, and to where the morning clothes bags are located. I'm sure I've forgotten something but I think that covers it. One thing I've also done is create an excel spreadsheet for Ironman race equipment. I create one sheet in the file for a packing checklist to help me remember everything when packing at home. I then create another sheet that is divided up into different sections with headings for each of the bags outlined above and list under each heading what will go into each bag. This file can be saved and used for future races as well. Another tool that BT provides for doing this is located on your personal blog area on the right hand side. There is a button labeled "RACE CHECKLIST" that you can click to create your own gear checklist. |
| 2014-01-19 10:44 AM in reply to: goricky |
Member 213 | Subject: RE: Birkierunner's (Jim Kelley) General + Long Course Group (OPEN) [Thanks for the nutrition thoughts Todd! Regarding hair, I have long, thick hair and worry about damage in the pool too. I heard somewhere that if you get it wet before you put on your cap, it absorbs less water in the pool. I don't know if that is true or not, but it does seem to help. Also, I usually put some conditioner on it before I put my cap on...that way, it is well conditioned, instead of well fried, when I come out. I also use two caps (b/c my hair is so long)...a lycra one and then a normal one. I don't know if that matters for chemicals and drying, but it is what I do. Maybe it helps keep the pulling and breaking at a minimum, I don't know. I do know, my hair seems to be keeping in good shape, despite the time in the water... I think they make special hair products for swimmers too. I don't use those, but you might look into them on one of the swim gear websites. Here is one I found: http://www.swimoutlet.com/Shampoos_Conditioners_s/302.htm?Search=shampoo ] Thanks Erika for the suggestions. I will give them a try and hopefully not turn blonde this year. Went for an eyelash icicle forming run this morning. Came home looking like Jack Frost. Beautiful with the sunrise though. - Todd |
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