kaburns1214 Mentor Group 2013 (Year 3!) - CLOSED (Page 97)

I posted this to the Whole9 website for an answer and here is the response that I received from Melissa Hartwig co-author of "It Starts With Food."

"This is sort of messed up logic. For some events, it IS important to replenish glucose in the body. But does that automatically mean you should get that sugar from an artificially colored, artificially flavored beverage with zero nutritive value??? It’s like saying, “Coconut is really healthy and a good fat source, so I’m going to eat a whole lot of Mounds bars.” We’re not debating the need to include healthy carbohydrates (sugar) during events of a certain duration. But do you need to drink a sugary drink to do that? There are much better sources."

nvm

LOL!  I don't know.  I'll ask over on the thread!

Here's the issue, what are the "much better sources" in the context of long course endurance events?  The Elete Electrolyte Add-In endorsed by Whole 30 contains no calories and no CHO, so while it is a good source of electrolytes it does not provide any CHO for the long course endurance athlete. 

Looking at the list of Whole 30 approved foods, there are lots of foods that contain complex carbohydrates, which the body can break down into CHO but they are poor choices for a long course triathlon for several reasons.  Let's take whole fruit and a sweet potato for example. 

Raw Apple - 1 apple - 120 calories - 30 g carbohydrates - 5.5 g fiber

Banana - 1 banana - 105 calories - 27 g carbohydrates - 3.1 g fiber

Dates - 1 date - 23 calories - 6 g carbohydrates - .7 g fiber

Sweet Potato - 1 medium - 103 calories - 23g carbohydrates - 4 g fiber

All four of these choices are excellent everyday foods, they are high in fiber, nutrient dense and provide carbohydrates.  Now let's apply this to an Ironman bike.  Lets say the athlete bikes at about 18 mph for 112 miles (so about a 6 hour bike).  Generally speaking you want to take in at least 75 grams of CHO per hour on the bike and want to replace lost fluids and electrolytes.  Lets assume all the fluids and electrolytes are replaced through water and Elete so the only thing we need to get from fruit is CHO. 

6 hours x 75 grams of CHO per hour = 450 g of CHO

450 g CHO = 15 apples = 17 bananas = 75 dates = 20 sweet potatoes

Now this a lot of fruit to carry and to eat.  Even if you want to carry and eat all this fruit, the real issue is how difficult all this fruit is to digest.  As we previously discussed during exercise the body diverts blood away from the GI system, which makes it difficult to digest and absorb electrolytes and CHO.  In addition, (and probably even more importantly) all this fruit has an incredibly large amount of fiber. The daily recommended amount of fiber is 30 grams for women and 38 grams for men.  If you go the fruit fueling route you're looking at:

15 apples = 82.5 grams of fiber

17 bananas = 52.7 grams of fiber

75 dates = 52.5 grams of fiber

20 sweet potatoes = 80 grams of fiber

This is a recipe for massive GI distress (and all before you even get to the run). 

I think eating whole foods is incredibly important on a day-to-day basis, but you're asking your body to complete a long course triathlon, you need to fuel it with things it can easily use and that won't cause undue stress to the GI system.  I can't see any way you can fuel a long course triathlon with whole foods. 

kidtri33 - 2013-03-26 8:45 PM boo yah! That's what my teenager would say! In other words nicely said Kelly! I guess my next question would be to her is what are the other alternatives then? We now know from Kelly's explanation obviously it couldn't be fruit. Scott I can feel you fuming all the way in VA

Something like unsweetened applesauce might work (it has 24 g of CHO per cup and 2.8 grams of fiber).  But that still works out to 18 cups of applesauce and almost 18 grams of fiber.  Its better than whole fruit on the fiber issue (but 18 grams is still a significant amount) and I'm not sure about the logistics of carrying 18 cups of applesauce. 

This is a relevant question; isn't it?      

Carrying around an apple or a couple dates for a sprint distance race is one thing, but what about endurance events that last 15-16-17 hours (even longer for some ultras)?  I would be curious to know what the people at Whole 30 suggest doing for these.  After seeing the numbers Kelly posted, it seems ridiculous to go the whole foods route for Ironman distance races.  For everyday eating, great.  For Ironman, not so much.  JMO  

I just finished up my last long run before my April 7 HM.  One more quality tempo run this weekend and I should be set for the race.  I'm excited to start racing.  Previous HM PR is 1:58 and that was in Oct 2011, so I'm really hoping to set a new PR (even if it's only by a couple minutes).  

Speaking of sports drinks...I got my first batch of Skratch in the mail yesterday.  I tried it on my long run today.  Pineapple flavor.  I really liked it!  I've never tried Pineapple flavored sports drink before, and the change was nice.  Question.....are the special needs bags at the midway point on the bike and run courses of an IM?  I will need to swap some bottles at my IM because I can't have the on course Perform, so I am just curious.  

Yes.  At roughly the mid way point of the bike and run.  Many (most) people stop at special needs and swap things out (including bottles). 

Yes.  Eating whole foods for everyday is really important.  You can even fuel short workouts and short races with whole foods but when you get into events that are 5 hours or longer, its a whole different game.  The purpose of fueling during a long course event is give your body the CHO, fluids and electrolytes it needs to finish the event.  The purpose is not to provide your body with nutrient dense foods for everyday health.  For long course endurance athletes eating whole foods is great for 80-90% of the time but sport nutrition products have a time and a place in training and racing.

kidtri33 - 2013-03-26 7:45 PM boo yah! That's what my teenager would say! In other words nicely said Kelly! I guess my next question would be to her is what are the other alternatives then? We now know from Kelly's explanation obviously it couldn't be fruit. Scott I can feel you fuming all the way in VA

I wasn't fuming.  Just was not in a frame of mind to write a response that wasn't curt. 

This sums up my views for the most part except I'm more inclined to set the limit on races at 2 hours instead of 5.  Why?  Because I'm an efficiency nut and fueling on whole foods on course is more of a pain than it needs to be.  Processed foods have a place in the world and programs like Whole 30 just seem to me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

You're going to absolutely smoke 1:58. You ran a 2:06 at your HIM. I would be shocked if you're not below 1:45 but no pressure.

A bit of a brag post but I really felt some affirmation on how I've been training this season in every aspect including the core work.

I did a really hard intervals workout on the trainer for 1:15. I had not run outside for almost two months because of the weather. Every day has been icy, rainy, snowing....literally something. So this morning was 32 with no wind and the roads dry enough that wasn't worried about patches of black ice. I went so hard on the trainer I decided I'd pack up and run out of the Y so I could stretch out again and enjoy some coffee on the way. In the back of my mind I was thinking no road running for a month coupled with such a hard trainer workout this could be ugly. On top of the core work I figured if I'm going to be doing all these treadmill miles I don't want them to just be empty mindless miles so I've really paid a lot of attention to foot placement, form and balance.

So I get on the road and run 5.1 miles @ 8:50 pace and an average HR of only 138 and it was effortless.

Mile 1 9:05 143 average HR

Mile 2 8:50 131 AHR

Mile 3 8:54 138 AHR

Mile 4 8:45 139 AHR

Mile 5 8:36 139 AHR

.1 8:07 144 AHR

I've felt for a long time that I've been making really good gains cycling but running doesn't come as naturally for me and I've been questioning myself but have stayed the course. I would have been happy with a run like that on fresh legs but to do it after the intervals even with the 45 minutes in between the end of the bike and start of the run is really sweet to me. A Z1 run at that effort would have seemed impossible even a few months ago.

I'm probably an average triathlete both in the group and in general but just thought re-force trusting your training and staying the course.

/brag

Awesome job. Now something kind of neat happened between miles 1 and 2.  Bonus points to anyone who can identify what happened. 

Does that include me? I put it in white down a few rows so you'll need to highlight it to see my answer.

The only reason mile 1 is so high is because of getting loose and having my HR spike for a quarter of a mile near the start. My max HR in mile one was 172 but that's deceiving since the effort wasn't 172. My max HR any other mile was 155 and that was on the biggest hill of the run and even then I felt smooth.

Scott nice job! One day I hope my Z1 runs are that fast.

My heart rate spikes sometimes in the first mile as well. That could be it. I know we have discussed this before I beleive. It doesn't happen on every run but mainly when I get less that 6 hours and go for a run, at least from my little research of myself.

going to try and upload a HR graph here...

If it works, you can see that I have a huge spike that lasts for the first full mile plus, then it drops - the pace was around 8:30 for the first mile, then going down to 8:00 and then 7:45.  I wish I could get that initial spike to lessen a bunch...  Any suggestions, other than starting off slower...

(HR Graph.jpg)