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2010-02-15 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Half Marathon is over with and I have a lot of catching up to do, getting on the bike this week starting at week 1.

I'll be using the HR method as I don't have a PM.  The Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer did come with it's "power computer" but I don't have it setup right now.  Wondering if anyone has used the KK meter for the PM training?


2010-02-16 8:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Week 7 Q2 done....killer.

2010-02-17 2:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Here we go guys, I just finished my 5th round of tests, starting the program on the 4th of November, the week after my great NYC marathon.
I want to share here my numbers/results and have some comments, especially by Jorge. On WKO+ software I don't understand some parameters like Pw:HR or Pa:HR but those are meaningless at the moment.
Some background on myself: solid runner, did few Half Ironman and once the full Ironman in 2008, my first year in triathlon, then in 2009 only running again, focusing on marathons and then from October I bought the Powertap and started with it at beginning of November. I have to admit that some sessions were very hard but I am use to that, especially when I do hard sessions on track&field for running. I did NOT miss ANY training from Jorge scheduling. I added a couple of testing weeks, testing every 4th week.
Now let's see the results, considering that I started on 68kg and gradually dropping downto my actual 66kg body weight.

5mins test results
 TSSPower AvgHR avgHR maxCadence AvgCrank Torque AvgBody WeightW/kg
wk19.226216016810823.3683.85
wk59.226216217010723.4683.85
wk910.928716217310625.9684.24
wk1312.13011551699829.3674.51
wk1712.130216317110128.6664.58

20mins test results

 TSSNorm PowerPower AvgHR avgHR maxCadence AvgCrank Torque AvgBody WeightW/kg
wk123.220820815816810319.4683.06
wk530.123623414616310022.5683.47
wk934.925625615316810223.9683.76
wk1336.82642641561719526.5673.94
wk1738.12682681611748928.6664.06


As you can notice, I couldn't improve on the last 5' test and I gave all while I have seen I small improvement in the 20mins test
At the moment I have my FTP at 257W with 3.89W/kg which sets me on a Very good rating from Coggan (Level 2).

Question 1) Last 5' test was at the same level because we missed VO2max training?
Question 2) Should we include some VO2max intervals in the future?
Question 3) Is the last 4W only improvement on the 20mins test normal? Overall I was expecting more due to the hard sessions I did in the last 4 weeks
Question 4) I am finishing my Base period, would it be better to test then every 8weeks instead of 4 only)
Question 5) I have seen that most of the books propose LT training sessions like 2x15, 2x20, 4x10 at a level which is >100% FT with long recoveries like 5' easy while you propose them shorter, less intense (>95%) with shorter recoveries of 1'. Where is the difference between the 2 methodologies?



Finally, I thank you Jorge for all this you did for us for free.
2010-02-19 10:33 AM
in reply to: #2677988

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Plissken74 - 2010-02-17 2:36 PM Here we go guys, I just finished my 5th round of tests, starting the program on the 4th of November, the week after my great NYC marathon.
I want to share here my numbers/results and have some comments, especially by Jorge. On WKO+ software I don't understand some parameters like Pw:HR or Pa:HR but those are meaningless at the moment.
Some background on myself: solid runner, did few Half Ironman and once the full Ironman in 2008, my first year in triathlon, then in 2009 only running again, focusing on marathons and then from October I bought the Powertap and started with it at beginning of November. I have to admit that some sessions were very hard but I am use to that, especially when I do hard sessions on track&field for running. I did NOT miss ANY training from Jorge scheduling. I added a couple of testing weeks, testing every 4th week.
Now let's see the results, considering that I started on 68kg and gradually dropping downto my actual 66kg body weight.

5mins test results
 TSSPower AvgHR avgHR maxCadence AvgCrank Torque AvgBody WeightW/kg
wk19.226216016810823.3683.85
wk59.226216217010723.4683.85
wk910.928716217310625.9684.24
wk1312.13011551699829.3674.51
wk1712.130216317110128.6664.58

20mins test results

 TSSNorm PowerPower AvgHR avgHR maxCadence AvgCrank Torque AvgBody WeightW/kg
wk123.220820815816810319.4683.06
wk530.123623414616310022.5683.47
wk934.925625615316810223.9683.76
wk1336.82642641561719526.5673.94
wk1738.12682681611748928.6664.06


As you can notice, I couldn't improve on the last 5' test and I gave all while I have seen I small improvement in the 20mins test
At the moment I have my FTP at 257W with 3.89W/kg which sets me on a Very good rating from Coggan (Level 2).

Question 1) Last 5' test was at the same level because we missed VO2max training?
Question 2) Should we include some VO2max intervals in the future?
Question 3) Is the last 4W only improvement on the 20mins test normal? Overall I was expecting more due to the hard sessions I did in the last 4 weeks
Question 4) I am finishing my Base period, would it be better to test then every 8weeks instead of 4 only)
Question 5) I have seen that most of the books propose LT training sessions like 2x15, 2x20, 4x10 at a level which is >100% FT with long recoveries like 5' easy while you propose them shorter, less intense (>95%) with shorter recoveries of 1'. Where is the difference between the 2 methodologies?



Finally, I thank you Jorge for all this you did for us for free.


Question 1) Last 5' test was at the same level because we missed VO2max training? Yeah, since we didn't do much VO2 it just shows given your training you have been able to sustain your power which is great. what you can do is take it easy for a week or two (riding around 65-755 of FTP with some threshold sets and then start a 3 week diet of VO2 max sets to try get that 302w to 310-320 and then focus on 20MP and/or FTP

Question 2) Should we include some VO2max intervals in the future? Read above - I only do VO2 work every 12-18 weeks to start a new cycle or if my FTP is getting too close to VO2 max.

Question 3) Is the last 4W only improvement on the 20mins test normal? Overall I was expecting more due to the hard sessions I did in the last 4 weeks - it can be normal. I don't know how much more training you have been doing with running and swimming as well hence your body is adapting and maybe sometime fatigued hence take an easy week or two and then get back at it.

Question 4) I am finishing my Base period, would it be better to test then every 8weeks instead of 4 only - sure I like to test actually every 6-8 weeks, we did more often on this test since it was just a short cycle and we wanted to maximize gains.

Question 5) I have seen that most of the books propose LT training sessions like 2x15, 2x20, 4x10 at a level which is >100% FT with long recoveries like 5' easy while you propose them shorter, less intense (>95%) with shorter recoveries of 1'. Where is the difference between the 2 methodologies? - There are many ways to work at improving FTP. "Pulling" it from the top which means doing more VO2 and 20MP sets, "pushing" it from the bottom doing more tempo (80-85% FT) or FT (90-100%) or "maximizing" it doing more longer sets at 100% FTP. This plan as I said above was short but the intention was to maximize gains in a general way addressing all aspects in a cycle progression. Now that you guys have learned this you can set up a personal plan addressing your needs; hence yes you can do 2-3x20' @ 100% FT with longer rest, you can keep doing 20MP and sub FT shorter sets (95-100%) with short rests or mix it up and do long tempo rides (80-85% FTP and add some 20' FT sets in the middle or do long rides (75-80% FT) closing with 20-30' @ 100% FT

Lots of ways to skin a cat!   I do this for all my athletes based in their specific needs, once I know their strengths/weaknesses, goals, fitness, time availability, recovery, etc. it is easier for me to come up with an optimal plan to maximize their gains. For all of you guys I had to keep everything very general cuz it is hard to coach so many of you at the same time. But if you keep things in perspective and look at the big picture; in 17 weeks you increased your 5MP by 16%, your 20MP by 25% and your FTP by a whopping 25%, that's a freaking lot! 

As you get stronger it will become exponentially more difficult to improve, it would be nice if we could increase our fitness in a linear way but we don’t work that way! As we grow stronger we'll have to do a lot more work to experience smaller gains. Congratulations on your awesome improvements dude, with your running speed you are on your way to have a fantastic racing season. Don’t forget to address your specific racing needs (i.e. for IM do your long rides) and you’ll kill it!

You should share your improvements on Tri-Talk for other BTers as a testament of how hard work, consistency and smart training can yield fantatsic results. There are no magic bullets or short cuts, just good old fashion train, rest, repeat



Edited by JorgeM 2010-02-19 10:34 AM
2010-02-19 12:24 PM
in reply to: #2674029

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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Donto - 2010-02-15 3:14 PM  The Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer did come with it's "power computer" but I don't have it setup right now.  Wondering if anyone has used the KK meter for the PM training?


I have a PowerTap, access to a computrainer and a KK with the power computer.
The PT on the computrainer give identical wattage numbers in the low and high range so I believe they are accurate

When I use the PT with the KK computer, at 165w they seem to say the same thing. But as The wattage increases, the KK gives higher readings. So at 185on the PT, the KK says 195. And at 220 on the PT the KK will say 260......you get the idea.
I don't think these meters are all that accurate. A little more work and  I suspect I could achieve Lance's FTP with this meter :-), ok , maybe not

Second problem is that it doesn't give an average wattage. It will be difficult to do the tests and figure out what your average power for 20 minutes will be unless you keep it very constant in which case you will have your eyes continuously on the computer which makes training kind of boring. I look over at the PT numbers every minute or so, and bring the average up a bit or down a bit....It would be difficult but not impossible with the KK PM.

If other people's experience is different please let me know. Maybe I am doing something wrong.
2010-02-19 4:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
marcag - 2010-02-19 1:24 PM
Donto - 2010-02-15 3:14 PM  The Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer did come with it's "power computer" but I don't have it setup right now.  Wondering if anyone has used the KK meter for the PM training?


I have a PowerTap, access to a computrainer and a KK with the power computer.
The PT on the computrainer give identical wattage numbers in the low and high range so I believe they are accurate

When I use the PT with the KK computer, at 165w they seem to say the same thing. But as The wattage increases, the KK gives higher readings. So at 185on the PT, the KK says 195. And at 220 on the PT the KK will say 260......you get the idea.
I don't think these meters are all that accurate. A little more work and  I suspect I could achieve Lance's FTP with this meter :-), ok , maybe not

Second problem is that it doesn't give an average wattage. It will be difficult to do the tests and figure out what your average power for 20 minutes will be unless you keep it very constant in which case you will have your eyes continuously on the computer which makes training kind of boring. I look over at the PT numbers every minute or so, and bring the average up a bit or down a bit....It would be difficult but not impossible with the KK PM.

If other people's experience is different please let me know. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Thanks for the feedback marcaq.  KK website seems to say that the two parameters are settable what ever that means, but if it doesn't provide an average reading then it is useless.


2010-02-19 4:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Donto - 2010-02-19 4:14 PM KK website seems to say that the two parameters are settable what ever that means, but if it doesn't provide an average reading then it is useless.


I re-read the manual. Apparently you can get average power, you use one button (on the right) to get to "Power mode" then another key bottom left to switch between avg, max and instant power. If there would be a way to reset the average, this would be actually useful (if it was accurate). I will play with it more on tomorrow's workout. I'll PM you with any findings so not to hijack the thread.
2010-02-24 7:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

In November I did my first test
20min : 225
5min : 263
FTP : 212

In December
20 min : 248
5 min: 261 ( I think I had a bad night, but whatever)
FTP :244

I did the program until week 10, when I switched to Jorge's HIM plan. The biking is very, very, similar. You know those 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 minutes at 95 or 100% of FTP, those killers....ya...you know.

Tested tonight
20 min : 274
5 min : 305
FTP : 264

52 watts in less than 4 months.


I have read many comments that the only way to improve is time in the saddle. Well, I spent a good amount of time in the saddle last summer and saw marginal improvements. Maybe I needed a base to see recent improvements, but I believe quality time in the saddle is needed and this program does just that, provide the structure to get quality time in the saddle. It was never easy, but wow, was it worth it.

We owe Jorge a massive thank you for this plan.

2010-02-25 9:21 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Any other late starters out there?

You all are giving me positive vibes with these results!  I started this week with Week #2 (testing) and recorded a 20 min 204 watt avg and 5 min 233 watt avg.  Not in great biking shape since I was run focused and expect to see some nice gains out of all this.  I also copied all the workouts and related info and made a pdf document so that I have the weekly workouts handy right next to my bike & trainer, no excuses!

2010-02-25 9:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
DUPLICATE...


Edited by Donto 2010-02-25 9:50 AM
2010-02-25 11:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Yeah I was another late starter and just recently finished through week 12....during the course of this plan I saw my FTP on the testing reach the same that I did back in Sept when I got my PT---I'm taking that as a positive since I struggle big time inside---feels so much harder and the watts just don't seem the same (even though I know they are...).

I now KNOW that this plan took good care of me this past 12 weeks---I finally said screw it I'm going outside....took the bike off the trainer (changed tires...)---it was an odd feeling the first couple of minutes---I was pedalling and the ground was moving and the scene was too!!!  Man the freedom of the open road BUUUUTTT back to the point---did a 40mile loop that I did regularly last summer/fall---was just looking for a solid ride but kept looking at my watts and thinking that I was over cooking my legs---waited for the bottom to drop out and reality to set in....well I made it back home and the ave watts were WAY over my expectations and the IF was a hair under .92 for the ride----so I figured let's really see what Jorge did to me this winter and I went for a nice little 20' run---I was EASILY able to maintain a pace right around HIM pace run!!!  The legs still felt good.  So this plan left me with a great base to build on for this season and I can't thank Jorge enough!!!


2010-03-01 12:31 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I can't provide updates for the entire training cycle because half way through I got a powermeter and switched from HR to power. But here are the last 3 tests...

December
20 minute: 227
5 minute: 295
FTP: 204

January
20 minute: 238
5 Minute: 300
FTP: 217

February
20 Minute: 248
5 Minute: 300
FTP: 231

I have 8 weeks to the start of my IM training so I'm going to go back and redo weeks 7-14 and then retest.
2010-03-02 7:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Round 2 testing done today.

                Avg. Heart rate            Avg. Speed
Test 1             163                            21.15 mph
Test 2             163                            21.66 mph

.5 mph improvement over 4 weeks!  I feel like I maybe could have pushed slightly harder.  Very consistent on the HR though...  Which is a surprise.

 
2010-03-02 8:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
I'll share the results of a little experiment I did, that might give some insight into what to expect in terms of speed.

I had a computrainer for the winter that I must return this weekend. I had decided before I started Jorge's plan to becnhmark myself, writing down all the parameters of the test and to re-test in the spring.

Back in the fall my FTP was 212, I now measured it at 264.

But what does this mean in terms of speed ?

I used the computrainer on the Hampton Sprint Course. This is a 20km pretty flat course. I remember doing to all out and being totally wiped at the end.

Back then my FTP was 212, and my average over the 20k course was 206watts and ended with my HR at 170.

Last night I decided to do the exact same course, but at 95% of my FTP which Jorge says is within the range one could use in a Sprint. I ended with a HR of 161.

So my average speed was  2.64km/h faster and I shaved off 2'32", at lesser effort as refelect by the HR and the % of FTP

DateFTPavg watts during sprint% of FTPtimeavg speedavg/max HR
Fall21220697%35'35"33.72165/170
March26425195%33'03"36.36155/161
       

I hope this is useful

I would have loved for it to be 5 minutes faster but hey, 2'32" on a sprint isn't bad. I also feel my ability to hold a good pace over a longer period of time has dramatically improved.

2010-03-02 10:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Question.  Since power is power is it fine to break up a 15min 80-85% FTP session into 3x5min (80-85%) at different RPMs (e.g ~87, ~95, ~103) to break up the trainer monotony?

I did this today and found the lower RPM was harder than the other two.  I typically ride at higher RPMs so this is not much of a surprise.
2010-03-06 1:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

I'm still plodding along with these sets but I just wanted to say I can see the difference when I ride. I can hold a higher speed for a longer length of time.  Facing headwind today I could still get 17 mph in that wind. 



2010-03-10 8:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
my olympic plan started 2 weeks ago and I have had to stop the plan verbatim as of the end of week 10.  I still follow it on the days I find myself on the trainer.  Since I didn't have any fancy equipment in the beginning other than my HRM, I can't get you any hard and fast numbers.  But what I can say is this:  This plan is awesome.   I finally got outside last weekend and wow...what a difference from last fall!  Hills would leave me breathless and now I charge up them without a second thought.  My mph has increased as well from last fall.  I am very happy with the improvements and will definitely be looking for you again, Jorge, next off-season!  Thank you! 

Edited by Seren 2010-03-10 8:16 AM
2010-03-26 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Donto - 2010-02-25 10:21 AM Any other late starters out there?

You all are giving me positive vibes with these results!  I started this week with Week #2 (testing) and recorded a 20 min 204 watt avg and 5 min 233 watt avg.  Not in great biking shape since I was run focused and expect to see some nice gains out of all this.  I also copied all the workouts and related info and made a pdf document so that I have the weekly workouts handy right next to my bike & trainer, no excuses!


Still working at it! I'm into Week 6 and just did my 2nd round of testing, some nice gains so far:

Rd1 20m

Rd2 20m

Rd1 5m

Rd2 5m

204

219

233

253


Actually felt like I left some on the Rd2 20m test, started out too low compared to how I was able to finished the last 10 min.
2010-05-31 7:12 AM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
On week 6, went for a ride on the road and definitely noticed a difference. 
2010-07-03 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Just wrapped up week 10, killer but great!  Road rides are much improved, thanks!!!!
2011-07-25 4:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread

Forgive me for bumping an old thread, but the links in Jorge's first post don't appear to be working.

Are they hosted at a new location now? I would really like to read them.



2011-07-27 1:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
Or does someone have the program in a file format they can email?
2011-08-02 5:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Winter Cycling Plan Official Thread
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