Since there are a lot of scientists & engineers in this forum

Well, I’m a female scientist, just to offer my perspective. And I don’t shy away from calling myself a feminist (though I will qualify that by saying that most people tend to apply qualities to anyone who’ll use that word that may not be true).

 I was listening to a story about this on NPR last night and they offered some interesting points. First, the avg female’s math test scores are only slightly lower than the avg male’s (it is statistically significant, but very slight). But, the distribution is very different. There are many more men on the upper end of the bell curve than women. We’re talking waaaay into genius territory.

 The reason for this is unknown. It could be innate, as Summers said. It could be a problem of nurture… parents treating daughter and son differently (even when they are actively trying not to…. there is an interesting theory about why women score higher in language tests and that is that girl babies tend to be talked to more than boys), teachers treating boys and girls differently. There are myriad possible reasons for the disparity and yes, one of them is an inherent difference.

 So I’m not going to blast the guy for pointing this possibility out. However, the next part of his argument would have pissed me off. Where he started saying that because autism has been found to have genetic  rather than socialization-based causes means that the lack of women in top-levels of science and engineering must be genetic, that is complete and utter bull****. You can’t compare an illness to a normally functioning brain. And you can’t draw conclusions that just because one thing is genetic means another thing must be.

 So, I’d say that while his basic point was valid, his evidence was not at all valid. It doesn’t really get me all that riled up. What he thinks about my inherent mathematical or scientific ability has no bearing on my actual ability! And I doubt I’ll be applying to any prof positions at Harvard anytime soon either. But I do think that women who are in that position may be looking elsewhere now…

Edited by kimj81 2005-01-20 12:37 PM

Mary-

I'll never forget when I was a sophomore in HS and my geometry teacher told me "You've gone as far as you can in math. Don't bother taking anymore, because you'll never pass Algebra. You'll make a great housewife." :-( As it turns out, I'm crappy at lower levels of math, I'll admit. But as it becomes less about numbers and more about description, the better I get (I rocked all my calc classes). A**hole. I haven't gotten anything less than an A in any math class since his....

Edit: "I think the crux of what makes this volitile is that people need to be considered as individuals, not catagories, and young people need to be encouraged to develope their talents, regardless of gender." I couldn't agree with this statement more.

Just wanted to weigh in since I'm another female engineer.  I do think this guy's comments were taken out of context, although some of what he said is pretty offensive, nonetheless.  But I find the general tone of what he said to be interesting.

In school growing up, I don't remember anoyone ever treating me like I couldn't do math and science because I was a girl.  My AP calculus and chemistry classes in high school had more girls in them than guys.  I went on to college at the Colorado School of Mines, where the male/female ratio is 75/25 (actually quite good for an engineering school).  When applying for admission at the time, the school waived my application fee because I was female - I paid it because I thought it was slightly offensive to all the poor guys trying to get in.  Anyhow, I've never been treated like there was any reason I should be bad at this stuff, so it never crossed my mind that I couldn't do it as well as the boys.

Math test scores aside,  the female student population at the Colorado School of Mines (all science/engineering degree programs) has a significantly higher average GPA than the male student population.  It's an environment where no one treats the girls like they're stupid, and they are therefore able to perform to their abilities.

I find working in the actual engineering field to be interesting though, to say the least.  For starters, I am the only female engineer on the floor of my office, and can only think of a handful of female chemical engineers that work here.  Most are young, because I have a feeling that the company mnagement is pushing those in charge of hiring to work on the male/female ratio.  When starting on new projects, I have often encountered men (almost always much older than me) who initially doubt my work because I am young and female.  However, I find that once I prove myself these men are pretty fair about changing their assumptions.  It sucks having to feel like I have to prove myself though, and it's because of attitudes like this guy at Harvard.

On the other hand, being a female comes in handy.  I gave a presentation at a big conference last year, mostly because the powers that be at my company knew the presentation would get more attention if I was one of 3 females presenting at the conference, rather than just another old white guy.  I don't particularily like being put in that position, but it happens, and it doesn't hurt my career.

Anyhow, now I'm rambling and not making much of a point, so I'll stop!!

I could have kids with my job, but I'd prefer to work part-time, from home or not at all (and pick up at least close to where I left off once Junior's in school). But then again I'm government and "non-essential", ie no more than 40 hpw.

I personally think this issue specifically is the next big issue that needs to be addressed by feminism. Now that we can hold the same jobs as men, we need to find a way to do them while still being women in our most important role (from a global perspective.... I'm certainly not trying to say that a woman is worthless if she doesn't have kids!). I mean, if a whole generation of the best-of-the-best, intelligent, career-oriented women don't have kids because their jobs don't make room for it, what happens to the next generation?

I really haven't got time to put in all my thoughts on this subject, but I did want to say a few of the very important ones.

1)  While I have been in engineering, the number of women has increased dramatically.  It is better now because of that.

2)  Making sure that a project team is a mixture of men and women invariably make the team stronger.

3) The standard deviation of test scores in any subject for each gender is far great than the difference of the gender averages.

4) A good engineer is a mixture of all skills, not just math and science skills.  You need to be a well-rounded in ability.  When we recruit we are looking for the overall high achievers, top 10% in everything..  Turns out women are usually more well rounded on test scores than men.  Wish we could get more of them to enter the field.

5)When each of my daughters got to be a sophomore or junior in high school and began looking at colleges, I asked each where she wanted to visit.  To my disappointment, all three said, "Any school that does not have "technology" in its name.  Turns out they all do very mathematical and quantitative work.  They all would have been great engineers.  Their choice is reflective of the sad fact that if you are smart enough and well-rounded enough to be an engineer you can make a lot more money doing something else.  Women who could be engineers frequently choose a different field.

Just wanted to jump in and comment that I find it interesting that people assume that if men might slightly excel at science, then women must slightly excel in the arts.  The field of visual arts is not what you'd expect.  I'd love to quit my day job as an engineer to become a full-time oil painter, so I've done my research - 99% of the big name artists (i.e. the folks who sell paintings for thousands of dollars a piece) in this part of the country are men.  There's a bigger gender gap there than there is in engineering!!! Don't know why though... My guess is that women in general have not been raised with the business skills necessary to compete in such a competitive field, and that as more girls are raised with these skills, more will enter the field??

So this isn't an issue only in the sciences...

Soooo, what happened? Did the women do better in that class?

I'm not in a scientific field, but I did well in my math and science courses in HS, so I'll chime in.

While a senior in high school, I read an article about a study that tracked HS valedictorians by sex through college.  As the women progressed in college, their performance dropped whereas men's continued.  Discrimination, lack of support and other factors were cited as causes.

I choose to attend an all women college because of my experiences with bias against women (or towards men) and my desire to get an education, not an MRS degree.  The environment was great.  It was supportive but not coddling and challenging without being cold.  I continued to excel and graduated summa.

Funny thing happened there, though.  A renowned professor came to my college to speak in a religion class.  He started spouting out crap about women having less innate skill in math and sciences.  He nearly started a riot! 

Anyway, now the biggest thing that hampers me in my career is my desire for work/life balance.  Simply put, I'm not willing to put in even 60 hours a week on a regular basis for someone else (maybe for the small biz Hubby and I are starting!).  I feel like I have too little time as it is considering I work out 1-2 hrs/day.  And I do want to have children in the future.  It's sad that the best and brightest of our generation are the ones deciding not to procreate because of how it conflicts with fulfilling careers!

Working excessive hours is just not healthy.  I studied abroad in Costa Rica for a semester and their attitude about work is very different.  After awhile I got into their mindset, relaxed and took things much easier.  A few weeks later, something weird happened - my PMS went away.  And so did my 3-day headaches.  And so did my panic attacks and muscle tension.  I started to realize that a lot of my prior problems were rooted in stress.

Anyway, I think the work/life balance issue is one of the biggest reasons why women continue to have lower showing in these demanding professions.  Hopefully, though, the influence of feminists in the marketplace will end up convincing companies to pay more attention to the work/life balance, which will in turn allow men to reap the rewards too.  And when dads have the freedom to work less, moms have the freedom to work more.