General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time Rss Feed  
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2009-01-21 8:54 PM

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Subject: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

We're all supposed to know about saving something in the tank for the run, and Gordo has a couple of great lines like "find an easy pace and back off from there". I'm pretty sure I had got the message but decided to do a bit of semi-statistical research to check it out.

I got the IMNZ results from last year and took a snapshot of all finishers between 11h 45min and 12h 15min. This is basically middle of the pack.

It was astounding how very clearly the people with faster rides took much longer on the run, and vice versa. Table below summarising results:


Bike time range    # finishers    Run time range    Run median
5:10 - 5:20            1                    5:23                      Blow up!
5:20 - 5:30            1                    5:40                      Bigger blow up!
5:40 - 5:50            6                    4:37 - 5:10            4:52
5:50 - 6:00           12                   4:27 - 4:49            4:36
6:00 - 6:10           22                   4:11 - 4:55            4:31
6:10 - 6:20           23                   4:03 - 4:37            4:26
6:20 - 6:30           16                   3:31 - 4:26            4:14
6:30 - 6:40            9                    3:55 - 4:19            4:16
6:40 - 6:50            2                    3:40 - 3:46            3:43

So, of all 92 people who finished between 11h 45min and 12h 15min, the slowest riders were to the fastest runners. I bet these were the ones most overall satisfied with their race too.

Take off the outlying small numbers and you can still clearly see run times getting lower as the bike time increase.

What a great wakeup call for me with only 6 weeks to go til IMNZ. Forget any targets of bike time and just do a comfortable pace the whole way like I would on my long training rides. That's going to give me the best chance for a satisfying run and overall race.

Gerrard



2009-01-21 9:25 PM
in reply to: #1921494

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
Gerrard - 2009-01-21 9:54 PM

We're all supposed to know about saving something in the tank for the run, and Gordo has a couple of great lines like "find an easy pace and back off from there". I'm pretty sure I had got the message but decided to do a bit of semi-statistical research to check it out.

I got the IMNZ results from last year and took a snapshot of all finishers between 11h 45min and 12h 15min. This is basically middle of the pack.

It was astounding how very clearly the people with faster rides took much longer on the run, and vice versa. Table below summarising results:


Bike time range    # finishers    Run time range    Run median
5:10 - 5:20            1                    5:23                      Blow up!
5:20 - 5:30            1                    5:40                      Bigger blow up!
5:40 - 5:50            6                    4:37 - 5:10            4:52
5:50 - 6:00           12                   4:27 - 4:49            4:36
6:00 - 6:10           22                   4:11 - 4:55            4:31
6:10 - 6:20           23                   4:03 - 4:37            4:26
6:20 - 6:30           16                   3:31 - 4:26            4:14
6:30 - 6:40            9                    3:55 - 4:19            4:16
6:40 - 6:50            2                    3:40 - 3:46            3:43

So, of all 92 people who finished between 11h 45min and 12h 15min, the slowest riders were to the fastest runners. I bet these were the ones most overall satisfied with their race too.

Take off the outlying small numbers and you can still clearly see run times getting lower as the bike time increase.

What a great wakeup call for me with only 6 weeks to go til IMNZ. Forget any targets of bike time and just do a comfortable pace the whole way like I would on my long training rides. That's going to give me the best chance for a satisfying run and overall race.

Gerrard



This is great news for those who are strong runners. But for those of us who aren't so hot to trot in that discipline, we race the bike. So please keep in mind that some of those faster bike split/slower run split folks may not be strong runners from the get go. I don't hold out much hope that I could run a stand alone 4 hour marathon, let alone one in an IM, but I do stand a good shot at a sub 6 hour bike split.


2009-01-21 9:48 PM
in reply to: #1921547

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

barqhead - 2009-01-22 2:25 PM  This is great news for those who are strong runners. But for those of us who aren't so hot to trot in that discipline, we race the bike. So please keep in mind that some of those faster bike split/slower run split folks may not be strong runners from the get go. I don't hold out much hope that I could run a stand alone 4 hour marathon, let alone one in an IM, but I do stand a good shot at a sub 6 hour bike split.

Agreed that the balance of everyone's results will be different depending on where their strengths are.

However the overall pattern does support the theory that the harder you push on the bike the more it will impact your run. Good execution of the whole day is far more important to me than shooting for a particular time in one discipline.

2009-01-21 10:19 PM
in reply to: #1921547

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
barqhead - 2009-01-21 10:25 PM

Gerrard - 2009-01-21 9:54 PM

We're all supposed to know about saving something in the tank for the run, and Gordo has a couple of great lines like "find an easy pace and back off from there". I'm pretty sure I had got the message but decided to do a bit of semi-statistical research to check it out.

I got the IMNZ results from last year and took a snapshot of all finishers between 11h 45min and 12h 15min. This is basically middle of the pack.

It was astounding how very clearly the people with faster rides took much longer on the run, and vice versa. Table below summarising results:


Bike time range    # finishers    Run time range    Run median
5:10 - 5:20            1                    5:23                      Blow up!
5:20 - 5:30            1                    5:40                      Bigger blow up!
5:40 - 5:50            6                    4:37 - 5:10            4:52
5:50 - 6:00           12                   4:27 - 4:49            4:36
6:00 - 6:10           22                   4:11 - 4:55            4:31
6:10 - 6:20           23                   4:03 - 4:37            4:26
6:20 - 6:30           16                   3:31 - 4:26            4:14
6:30 - 6:40            9                    3:55 - 4:19            4:16
6:40 - 6:50            2                    3:40 - 3:46            3:43

So, of all 92 people who finished between 11h 45min and 12h 15min, the slowest riders were to the fastest runners. I bet these were the ones most overall satisfied with their race too.

Take off the outlying small numbers and you can still clearly see run times getting lower as the bike time increase.

What a great wakeup call for me with only 6 weeks to go til IMNZ. Forget any targets of bike time and just do a comfortable pace the whole way like I would on my long training rides. That's going to give me the best chance for a satisfying run and overall race.

Gerrard



This is great news for those who are strong runners. But for those of us who aren't so hot to trot in that discipline, we race the bike. So please keep in mind that some of those faster bike split/slower run split folks may not be strong runners from the get go. I don't hold out much hope that I could run a stand alone 4 hour marathon, let alone one in an IM, but I do stand a good shot at a sub 6 hour bike split.




It looks like you would actually fall right in line then. A 6 hour bike and a4:50 run.

Right on the chart.
2009-01-21 11:34 PM
in reply to: #1921494

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

I'm not trying to be snarky, but can you really draw that conclusion from your data? You fixed the total time, so it would logically follow that if one of the numbers increases, the other one has to decrease (assuming comparable swim and transition times) to keep the sum constant. For your equation (Bike + Run = Total), you've fixed two of the the variables (Bike and Total). I'm not sure that the Run numbers can really mean anything in this context.

To draw the conclusion that you did, I think you have to look at the bike times for the entire pool of finishers, and then compare ranges of run times (ignoring total finishing time) in order to determine whether or not people blew up.

2009-01-21 11:44 PM
in reply to: #1921754

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
FeS - 2009-01-22 4:34 PM

I'm not trying to be snarky, but can you really draw that conclusion from your data? You fixed the total time, so it would logically follow that if one of the numbers increases, the other one has to decrease (assuming comparable swim and transition times) to keep the sum constant. For your equation (Bike + Run = Total), you've fixed two of the the variables (Bike and Total). I'm not sure that the Run numbers can really mean anything in this context.

To draw the conclusion that you did, I think you have to look at the bike times for the entire pool of finishers, and then compare ranges of run times (ignoring total finishing time) in order to determine whether or not people blew up.

 

Yeah I thought about doing the whole lot but it would have been a lot of work and I would have had to do a bunch of graphs and stuff to make any sense of it. I was interested in seeing if time conformed to normal distribution but never quite got there

I chose this time range because it is MOP. My guess is that you could take a snapshot at any point and get a similar result. Sure the numbers will be different, but I bet it would still show those go go hard on the bike have a slower run (relatively) and the opposite.

From the data here everyone finished within a similar time range (30 mins). Do you reckon the guy with the fastest bike split and walked a good bit of the run was happy with his race? I bet not!

Likewise the guy with the fast run would have been wondering how much more he could have pushed the bike.

There's a happy medium in there somewhere and each person has to find their own.

 



2009-01-22 1:46 AM
in reply to: #1921754

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
FeS - 2009-01-21 9:34 PM

I'm not trying to be snarky, but can you really draw that conclusion from your data? You fixed the total time, so it would logically follow that if one of the numbers increases, the other one has to decrease (assuming comparable swim and transition times) to keep the sum constant. For your equation (Bike + Run = Total), you've fixed two of the the variables (Bike and Total). I'm not sure that the Run numbers can really mean anything in this context.

To draw the conclusion that you did, I think you have to look at the bike times for the entire pool of finishers, and then compare ranges of run times (ignoring total finishing time) in order to determine whether or not people blew up.



Yup, this is exactly correct: The design of the sample _demands_ the result. There is no statistically meaningful correlation, for precisely the reason FeS points out.

Here's a quick analysis I did of the same race (IMNZ) to make the point:

Excluding all sub-10 finishers (just to remove the M and F Pros, who would likely skew toward balanced times, out of consideration for the OP's intentions):

Snap shot of all finishers above 10 hours in three ranges of bike times (which are the low, middle, and high ranges of OP's data ranges):

Bike time = 5:10-5:20 -> Run time range = 3:30 - 5:23

Bike time = 6:00-6:10 -> Run time range = 3:35 - 6:33

Bike time = 6:40-6:50 -> Run time range = 3:40 - 6:14

Fastest cyclists were also the fastest runners.

And among the 40 finishers with bike splits 8:00 or more, only 2 had a run under 5 hours (and none under 4:25). If there was a really noticeable correlation between conserving energy on the bike and fast run times, you might assume there would be at least one or two 8-hour bike finishers managing a four-hour marathon, but only one even broke 4:30. All of which is just to make the point that the relationship between bike and run at the IM distance is more complex than the seeming one-to-one correlation the original post appeared to unearth.

Note just as a matter of interest (though I'm quite sure the variance is not statistically significant) that the fastest run split got slower as the bike times got slower. And that the slowest run split for the fast cycling range was more than an hour faster than the slowest run in the medium range.

(Edited to correct a typo in a number.)

Edited by tcovert 2009-01-22 1:50 AM
2009-01-22 1:55 AM
in reply to: #1921494

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
(Just to be really clear: There is a relationship betw. not killing yourself on the bike and success on the run. There have been exactly 8.741 zillion threads on BT to more than adequately make that point. Just no inverse relationship between absolute bike splits and absolute run splits. Way more complex than that.)
2009-01-22 2:47 AM
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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

Of course the wider range you look at the wider the min and max time will get. That's why I took a 1/2 hour snapshot to show the range of differences between people who finished around the same time.

Yep everyone has different strengths and this is reflected in the bike to run ranges.

HOWEVER: For any give finishing time why go all out and smack the bike to then turn in a run performance that is below par for you. Surely a consistent performance across all 3 disciplines is a better result?

I've heard lots of people say to take it (relatively) easy on the bike, but these numbers actually demonstrated me.

2009-01-22 6:46 AM
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2009-01-22 8:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
Gerrard - 2009-01-22 2:47 AM

I've heard lots of people say to take it (relatively) easy on the bike, but these numbers actually demonstrated me.p>



Relative being the opperative word. Any individual athletes bike effort should be exactly what they trained, no more, no less. You don't show up to your IM looking to average 22mph when all you long rides where done at 20mph or vice versa. So, you don't ride "easy" or "hard", you ride what you trained.


2009-01-22 9:04 AM
in reply to: #1921494

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
If you were able to attain the power files for these athletes in T2 you would be able to predict which one of these athletes were going to blow before they blew. I've seen some very compeling data that shows ranges of TSS scores were athletes are able to run well following their bike. There is certainly "a line" actually several lines that will predict the melt down before it actually occurs. Its one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the qranium (quarq head unit) being released. It will be calculating TSS, Intensity factor, and NPower on the fly.



Edited by running2far 2009-01-22 9:05 AM
2009-01-22 12:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

running2far - 2009-01-23 2:04 AM If you were able to attain the power files for these athletes in T2 you would be able to predict which one of these athletes were going to blow before they blew. I've seen some very compeling data that shows ranges of TSS scores were athletes are able to run well following their bike. There is certainly "a line" actually several lines that will predict the melt down before it actually occurs. Its one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the qranium (quarq head unit) being released. It will be calculating TSS, Intensity factor, and NPower on the fly.

Here comes motorsport-like TV coverage (real time on screen):

"And look at that, Macca just changed up to his 12 and look at him fly. 6 1/2 minutes now pushing 350 (or whatever it is) watts. Surely he's going to blow!"

2009-01-22 1:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
bryancd - 2009-01-22 9:16 AM

Gerrard - 2009-01-22 2:47 AM

I've heard lots of people say to take it (relatively) easy on the bike, but these numbers actually demonstrated me.p>



Relative being the opperative word. Any individual athletes bike effort should be exactly what they trained, no more, no less. You don't show up to your IM looking to average 22mph when all you long rides where done at 20mph or vice versa. So, you don't ride "easy" or "hard", you ride what you trained.


That's exactly what I was trying to say. I know what my pathetic run pace is in training and I know what pace I can ride on a bike. Because my bike pace is speedier than my run pace doesn't necessarily mean I pushed too hard on the bike and killed my run. Race like you train and train like you race
2009-01-22 6:45 PM
in reply to: #1921839

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time
Gerrard - 2009-01-22 3:47 AM

Of course the wider range you look at the wider the min and max time will get. That's why I took a 1/2 hour snapshot to show the range of differences between people who finished around the same time.

Yep everyone has different strengths and this is reflected in the bike to run ranges.

HOWEVER: For any give finishing time why go all out and smack the bike to then turn in a run performance that is below par for you. Surely a consistent performance across all 3 disciplines is a better result?

I've heard lots of people say to take it (relatively) easy on the bike, but these numbers actually demonstrated me.



I believe the numbers nice job man!

Now go do it for 10 more races

2009-01-24 12:20 AM
in reply to: #1921832

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Subject: RE: Wow! Correlation Bike Time : Run Time

tcovert - 2009-01-22 2:55 AM (There is a relationship betw. not killing yourself on the bike and success on the run. There have been exactly 8.741 zillion threads on BT to more than adequately make that point.

It seems an equal number of threads also state that IMers all have different strengths. I come from a strong cycling background with years of training. I can ride a 20+ mph century (w/ no aero equip, FWIW) and not be "killing myself on the bike". That puts me at 5:30ish over 112 miles. I'll be training for closer to 5 hours and am exploring aero options.

But I have only been running for three months. The furthest I've run so far is 10k and I have absolutely no idea if I can even finish a marathon, let alone do it in any kind of noteworthy timeframe.

The only thing I can take away from these kinds of threads is that I need to ride a manageable pace, no matter what the corresponding MPH is. Although I haven't done it in a triathlon, I have done 100 mile time trials and other ultra events. My method is to maintain a target HR and not go over it, except for short durations to get over climbs. I train at and for that same HR.

In the case of IM, I am assuming that my target HR will need to be lower than what it would be for a cycling-only event. In a TT, I can sustain a 155-160 average for 5 hours. My plan for Florida is to stay in the 140s, but I will evaluate that as the training progresses throughout the year.

Any flaws in my approach or other advice?



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