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Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback
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 2005-03-15 10:43 PM |
Veteran  280   Salem, MA |  Subject: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedbackHi, everyone. So I'm training for my first sprint triathlon in July. I started the year out swimming 2-3 times a week. I needed a lot of work on stroke mechanics. I also needed to prove to myself that I could swim the race distance (.5 mi). So I've spent all my swim time working on slow endurance swims. Last week I swam the half mile for the first time non stop. Yay! Here's the problem. When swimming freestyle continuously, I would really fatigue and get winded quickly. SO I have been alternating 2 lengths of free with 1 length backstroke, which allows comfortable breathing and lets my heart rate drop a bit. Using that rhythm I've been able to do the half mile. But now that I KNOW I can swim the distance, one way or another, I would like to build up my ability to continue swimming free for longer and longer times. I originally thought I would do this by keeping the backstroke break in my workout, but graduallyincreasing the number of free lengths it took to 'earn' a backstroke length. However, in another thread I saw someone recommending ladder workouts as a way to build the ability to swim freestyle longer. I don't know much about ladders. Tonight I tried a 25-50-75-100-75-50-25 ladder, and it went allright (although the 100 had me panting at the end). Should I be trying to do two of those in a row? How much rest should there be at the end? Is this really the way to work on extending my freestyle time? If you have good links or articles to recommend, I'd love to hear about them. Thanks. Edited by Miko 2005-03-15 10:45 PM |
| 2005-03-15 11:16 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Expert 1213 Los Gatos, CA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback I have the same problem, but insert breaststroke instead. My approach is one of "sets". I do sets of freestyle laps, typically 4-6 laps freestyle, recover 30 seconds between sets or a lap of breaststroke, go again, gradually increase the #laps per set.....until I don't need sets anymore.... |
| 2005-03-15 11:26 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Master 2381 Frisco, Texas | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Michelle, Everything I have read (and it's alot) about swimming workouts does not recommend "playing wall tag", i.e. long swims. Swimming is all about stroke technique and efficiency. All of the work outs I use are broken into swim sets. Each set has a short rest interval. See my log. Most of these workouts come from Gale Bernhardt's books. I know it sounds strange, but swimming the short swims with good technique will yeild the results you want - being able to swim the distance. I do ladders occasionally. Ladders are an example of what I'm talking about above. Actually, the ladder that you did is a great workout. Keep it up and the distance will come. Focus on technique. Here are a couple of links. They both have good stuff on swimming. http://www.cruciblefitness.com/index.htm TJ |
| 2005-03-15 11:59 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Master 1927 Chicago | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Long swims are counterproductive if you don't have the right technique. Swimming is heavily dependent upon muscle memory. Your muscles will remember how you swam and if the technique was wrong it will store that and chances are you'll be wrong everytime. How does doing something wrong for longer periods improve you? It doesn't. I LOVE ladders. Mostly because I tend to just want to knock out 1500 or 2000 m at once and get it over with. I just hate to swim in sets, not patient enough. But even though I had the distance I didn't have the speed. It wasn't until I started doing swim sets - 500, 400, 200, etc., that I got speed and got better. Ladders help me with that. Each set I concentrate on a different technique to perfect it and then put it all together toward the end of my swims. I agree with TJ. Swimming is about technique not distance. You're doing a sprint so you should not worry about swimming longer just swimmer better. |
| 2005-03-16 1:00 AM in reply to: #130389 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback An alternative to ladders is sets of the same distance, with decreasing rest time between them from one workout to the next. i.e. 5x 100yd with 1 min rest. Decrease rest on successive workouts. or something similar. |
| 2005-03-16 1:44 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Veteran 280 Salem, MA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Thanks a lot you guys. I learned a lot by looking at the links and the notes from zia cyclist and steward...I will definitely start doing the ladders and pay attention to form and technique. Please note, though, that I just made it to 800m by alternating strokes. When folks talk about swimming 500m ladders (which means a total of 2500 m!) it scares me, because I doubt that I can do it. I got winded trying to complete 100m without switching strokes. I'm not sure whether the most benefit will come from swimming more distance in the middle set, or swimming more than one ladder in a workout, or what. Guess I just don't know exactly how to get started to get a good, productive workout. perhaps I need to hit the books and follow a prescribed plan. |
| 2005-03-16 1:59 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Expert 1836 Lafayette, CO | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback To target on something that TJ, Ovetta, and AdventureBear alluded to: while working on technique, gradually bring you rests between sets down. If your technique is good, you'll be able to swim a long time without dying for air. But by decreasing your rests as well, you train your body to use its available oxygen better. This, in turn, will help you concentrate on your technique (since you won't be flailing and gasping for air), which helps your endurance. Ladders are great, but if you don't think you're ready for them, you may fail to accomplish the longer ones. You can start with shorter ladders if you wish. Right now, I'm working on sets of 150 yds, with 45 seconds rest between each repeat (10x150 w/45s RI). For me, this is quite a jump from a 2 minutes rest! After each set of 10, I'll rest 2+ minutes before starting another set. |
| 2005-03-16 2:07 PM in reply to: #130655 |
Expert 1213 Los Gatos, CA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback joeinco - 2005-03-16 10:59 AM To target on something that TJ, Ovetta, and AdventureBear alluded to: while working on technique, gradually bring you rests between sets down. If your technique is good, you'll be able to swim a long time without dying for air. But by decreasing your rests as well, you train your body to use its available oxygen better. This, in turn, will help you concentrate on your technique (since you won't be flailing and gasping for air), which helps your endurance. Ladders are great, but if you don't think you're ready for them, you may fail to accomplish the longer ones. You can start with shorter ladders if you wish. Right now, I'm working on sets of 150 yds, with 45 seconds rest between each repeat (10x150 w/45s RI). For me, this is quite a jump from a 2 minutes rest! After each set of 10, I'll rest 2+ minutes before starting another set. Couldn't agree more....technique alone isn't going to get you to swim a mile non-stop....endurance in the water is different than on land...I also find that as I get winded I need to double up on technique as I can't compensate anymore with strength...my coach says my last laps are better than my first.... |
| 2005-03-16 4:07 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Expert 717 Utah | Subject: Call me stupid. . . but for a minute there I thought you were talking about fish ladders (the things in some rivers (like the Truckee) that help fish get upstream). Couldn't figure it out. . .  |
| 2005-03-16 5:57 PM in reply to: #130389 |
| New user 16 | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Great question and set of responses. I'm a pretty weak swimmer who has been swimming twice a week with a masters group and once a week on drills. Recently my coach had me swap my masters swims with ladders in preparation for IMCDA. Together with a decent warm-up and cool-down I generally do one 100-200-300-400-500-400-300-200-100 ladder with 30 second rests. This might sound like a lot to you now but in time you'll get there! (Two years ago my competitve-swimming daughter laughed her head off when she saw me going backwards instead of forwards with a kick board.) During the ladder I do as someone else mentioned and use each 100 meters to concentrate on some technical aspect, like high elbow, rolling, kicking, bilateral breating, finishing the stoke etc. The obvious advantage of this is stroke improvement, but it also helps me pass the time. Good luck |
| 2005-03-16 9:12 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Veteran 280 Salem, MA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Great suggestions and encouragement (and I love your kickboard success story, jcanuck!) I'll work on this for a while and then come back and report my progress. Thanks! |
| 2005-03-16 9:26 PM in reply to: #130779 |
Extreme Veteran 354 Townsville | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback jcanuck - 2005-03-17 8:57 AM Together with a decent warm-up and cool-down I generally do one 100-200-300-400-500-400-300-200-100 ladder with 30 second rests. This might sound like a lot to you now but in time you'll get there! hey there jcanuck, how long would this ladder take you to complete? I am looking for something I can do during my lunch break which is 1 hour. CXheers |
| 2005-03-16 10:38 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Veteran 280 Salem, MA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback OK -- you guys want to hear something really funny? I just now figured out that I am swimming in a 50 meter pool -- not like my old one, which was 25. Somehow I was airheaded enough to miss this important math fact! So that means the "100" I thought I was doing was actually 200 (4 laps). I guess I'm farther along than I thought! |
| 2005-03-16 11:34 PM in reply to: #130846 |
Master 2381 Frisco, Texas | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback LOL. That is funny. I have a similar story. I thought the pool I swim was a 25 yard pool. When I started swimming about 6 months ago, I thought to myself "Damn, I'm slow". Then I found out it's a 25 meter pool. It makes a difference. TJ |
| 2005-03-17 12:29 PM in reply to: #130825 |
| New user 16 | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Spanner - 2005-03-16 6:26 PM jcanuck - 2005-03-17 8:57 AM Together with a decent warm-up and cool-down I generally do one 100-200-300-400-500-400-300-200-100 ladder with 30 second rests. This might sound like a lot to you now but in time you'll get there! hey there jcanuck, how long would this ladder take you to complete? I am looking for something I can do during my lunch break which is 1 hour. CXheers The answer depends on your speed of course, but I think an hour for the main set is certainly doable by most people. For the warm-up and cool-down I add another 15-20 minutes. jcanuck |
| 2005-03-17 7:46 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Extreme Veteran 475 Blaine, MN | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Wow... I am totally new to swimming as well. Today I actually acomplished a huge record for myself... I complete the 1/2 mile in all free stroke. I then finish the mile in 38 minutes.. for me thats pretty good ... I took 20-30 seconds breaks.. Ive been weaning slowely but surely my dependency on breaststrokes to compensate on my fatigue... I manged to complete 2000 meters today with 73% freestyle.. so I am happy. Im not pro or anything but I would say from my own experience the transistioning gradually from breast to freestyle seems to work pretty well. I also do 200 meter sets (i.e., 8 lengths) and then quick rests... One thing I have found very interesting in my abilitiy to sustain a lower HR is to just not push so damn hard with my arms... you almost have to relex and just gradually push to water and not dig so dig and push so hard and spike your HR in just a few laps.... This one guy who comes to our pool has been swimming like 25 years now and he gets in and NEVER stops... he is like a machine.... I can easily outpace him,.. but eventually I get tired and have to rest... unlike him... who, like a turtle just keeps plugging away methodolically.... Train like a turtle ... and dont over exert yourself... Thats whats kept me from breaking out ... Of course, there is also technique... ...rofl... Regards... and GL |
| 2005-03-17 9:10 PM in reply to: #130389 |
Veteran 280 Salem, MA | Subject: RE: Ladder Swimming? Need some feedback Thanks rabkaman. That's a good success story. So after all the input from everyone, I'm thinking: one ladder workout, and one 'sets with decreasing rest' workout a week. I feel really encouraged. Thanks. Edited by Miko 2005-03-17 9:11 PM |
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