Bridge - 6 weeks between HIM & marathon

Bump...

and adding another element; I'm no twentysomething

All I really know about the FIRST program is that it is intensity heavy and meant for runners who are pretty 'solid' going into it.  I don't know what week 11 of 16 is like but, looking at your logs, I would certainly not recommend this plan to you.

What I can say is that you have a very short training window for the marathon.  Really, you only have 3-4 weeks of real training before tapering again.  And, assuming you will have tapered going into the HIM, that 3-4 weeks could be a very tough build for you.  I would think you'd want to be following a pretty 'run heavy' training schedule for the HIM to give it a real go (not a "just finish" and see what happens go).  But you'll effectively be 'compromising' two races that way.  Nothing wrong with that if it's what you want to do.  But it seems you either have to compromise training for one race 'a lot' or both races 'modestly'.

Thanks for the feedback JK...


F.I.R.S.T. is very intense and pace specific. This time last year I had already done a 15mi and 17mi long run with the first of (5) 20 milers at the end of this same week a year ago. I did struggle at times with the plan and its quick ramp. Ideally I should have had a better base but I think it did help me get within about 2 minutes of my BQ goal.

Week 11 has a 20 miler at the end which would be 2 weeks after the HIM. There would be one more 20, then it backs down into a one week taper. I think using F.I.R.S.T. as a bridge is not ideal, but it is something I know, something I used, and still allows for swim and bike.

The HIM is my A race for the fall and my main focus but I got to thinking about doing something else for fun before winter sets in. I got to thinking about doing the half that is on the same day as the full, but then thought, "Hey, why not the full". The Philly marathon is a great race (as I'm guessing you know).

It does seem that "because you could totally blow up" is a compelling "why not."

Not sure you will necessarily "totally blow up".  But there's also no real way to train 'appropriately' for a marathon in so little time.   If you weren't able to get the sub 3:30 last year, you'll need a lot of determination and a good measure of luck to get it this year on that schedule and your YTD training.

Your HIM is very late season for around here already.  Personally, I would 'shut it down' after that race for a few weeks and then resume off-season training.  Perhaps shoot for an early sping marathon or "just" look to improve over the 5k and 10k distances over the winter/spring.  But, that's me...

Sub 3:30; ha! Now way I'd try to do that this year!

I do like the idea of backing down for a bit. I did a 16 week build for Columbia, and that rolled right into the 20 week build for Bassman with NJ State and Philly thrown in for fun. I want to do Black Bear HIM next spring and I know I'll need to work over the winter for those hills.

i know only 1 week of recovery after a HIM would be pushing it for me, if i was to start an intense plan the following week.  i think it would take me atleast 2 weeks to become 100% recover and ready to rock hard workouts. 

You might be able to do it if you started training right now, not wait until after the HIM. Your current run training is very light even to have a decent run in the HIM. Since this is your first HIM you also may not be able to reach the intensity levels the FIRST program requires, and as already mentioned the period between the races is really much shorter than you've indicated once recovery and taper time is factored in. Sounds like a recipe for a "just finish" race, which you've said you don't want to do.

Why not wait to do a marathon until you can properly train?

How do you mean light? Volume/distance/time? I have only missed a couple of run workouts on the current plan.

How do you mean decent? Compared to what? My PR for a stand alone 13.1 is 1:37:55. I doubt I'll hit that, but I think I can hold at least 8:15.

Don't mean to sound defensive, just curious about your rational.

I will be pretty direct. I just glanced over your Aug run mileage. That is not even enough for HIM let alone a build up to a marathon at this stage. And also, you can't have it all, swim and bike and build up for a marathon to brake 3:30. 3:30 is my pipe dream and you can look at my logs and compare. Unless you have running background I would say, you are setting yourself up for a "blow up". Now, don't let my opinion discourage you as I am no expert or a coach.And also, for a marathon build up in your case, I would say you need more mileage now and going forward, before I would even think about any kind of intensity. I don't know anything about FIRST.

or rationale



To be clear, I DO NOT intend to try to run 3:30 if I were to do Philly in November. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. I have missed 3 runs in August (wait, it's still August, right?) due to vacation and illness, but 2 were 30 minute easy runs on a step back week. Running has always been my strength and I came to triathlon as a runner. I have very little concern about the run portion of the HIM. Plus I just got new shoes, so there's that.

Light as in distance. It appears you're averaging less than 15 miles/week. Is that the kind of mileage you've done to hit your HM PR?

I have a friend who runs pretty well in open races and in tris up to olys, and he trains about like you. When he does a HIM his run blows up. This summer he ran around 46 in an oly and blew up to 2:29 in a HIM. Not saying that will necessarily happen to you, but not only is your running mileage light, but so is your biking. If you're worn out going into the run in a HIM, the run can be much different than you expect.

Or maybe because you have a running background and possibly a huge base, you can get away with much less training than other people. However, you might want to wait to see how you feel after the HIM to make a decision on the marathon.

I do have a decent run base, but trained much more last year when I got my 13.1 and 26.2 PR's.

I see your point on the low bike and run mileage. I've been thinking about this for the bike particularly. The plan I'm doing has me swimming what seems to me to be quite a bit. I've already done several swims that are longer in time and distance that what I think my HIM will be. The longest run will be a single 2 hour run and there are a few 90 min runs. There is one 3 hour bike and a few 2:30 bikes. I've swum 1.2 miles and I know I can do it. I've run 13.1 miles and I know I can do it. I've not biked longer than 44.5 miles to date. I'm sure I can do 58, but it would be real nice to have already done it at least once. If I take it easy and average 17-18 that will be over 3 hours. I know you don't have to train the full distance to race the full distance, but it's a nice confidence booster. My 2nd marathon was better than my first because I had done the full distance at least once before.

Anyway, I have decided to not do the Philly Marathon this November. I may sign up for the half; the past two times I ran Philly it was no fun seeing the people peel off at the half way mark. Maybe it will be more fun to be one of them.

Thanks to all for the input.