hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down
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General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down | Rss Feed |
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2009-08-20 8:02 PM |
Expert 1690 | Subject: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down I look down, I've even tried pushing my head down (gets really uncomfortable). did a good bit of searching on these fourms and several people are on the fence even about this. Im more comfortable this way. I do do a bit of knee kicking but i am pretty good at maintaining my flutter. I found 1 post about sticking your butt out to push your chest down (another big issue im having trouble with). Ive tried this a few laps and found this helps, but im nervous this might create other issues. Should i pursue the "gorilla butt" technique? I know its hard to critique my swimming without video but the poor student in me would rather eat than get a camera. Edited by mkarr0110 2009-08-20 8:10 PM |
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2009-08-20 8:54 PM in reply to: #2361377 |
Champion 6656 | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down We would do drills in swimming imagining the chest press or "T-press"...this is done by imagining pushing down from the shoulders in the attempt to raise your center of gravity from your butt towards your chest---if you are male--unfortunately this is a little harder due to your lack of body fat (sucker, only in this case), for females it is easier! So I guess essentially the idea of gorilla butt is somewhat right. You need to make sure you arn't hinging at the waist though. Imagine that there is a rod through your spine. It will take some getting used to, because you need to adjust to a new body position in the water. It will get easier with practice! As mentioned before in many different forums, swimming is a highly technical discipline and unfortunately that means many hours in the pool are required...Body position is probably one of the most important technical aspects of swimming...because you are just not going to go quickly if you are plowing through the water! |
2009-08-20 9:14 PM in reply to: #2361377 |
Veteran 274 Arvada | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down Now I know very little about this and should probably just keep my mouth shut as I'm such a newbie. However, from what I can remember about the swim instruction we received at the beginning of this year (Total Immersion based) in addition to keeping your head down to bring your hips up, it also had much to do with your stroke and the depth. I believe we were told that your hands should go down much farther then you would think. We did drills holding our hands out in front of us at different depths. When you found the right depth you could actually feel your hips go up. Maybe you could do some investigating on that. Any way hope that helps some. |
2009-08-20 9:30 PM in reply to: #2361377 |
Master 2372 | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down mkarr0110 - 2009-08-20 8:02 PM I look down, I've even tried pushing my head down (gets really uncomfortable). did a good bit of searching on these fourms and several people are on the fence even about this. Im more comfortable this way. I do do a bit of knee kicking but i am pretty good at maintaining my flutter. I found 1 post about sticking your butt out to push your chest down (another big issue im having trouble with). Ive tried this a few laps and found this helps, but im nervous this might create other issues. Should i pursue the "gorilla butt" technique? I know its hard to critique my swimming without video but the poor student in me would rather eat than get a camera. As a guess I'd say you're not kicking well enough to keep your legs up and are overcompensating by trying to raise your butt up (or head down), which actually makes things somewhat worse. Leg drills. Get rid of that knee kick completely. Don't push your head down. It isn't the root of the problem at all and is making your posture worse. |
2009-08-20 10:03 PM in reply to: #2361377 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down Instead of extending your arms straight out in front of you, try angling them down slightly. That sometimes helps my hips to stay up. |
2009-08-20 10:21 PM in reply to: #2361516 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down sand101 - 2009-08-20 7:30 PM mkarr0110 - 2009-08-20 8:02 PM I look down, I've even tried pushing my head down (gets really uncomfortable). did a good bit of searching on these fourms and several people are on the fence even about this. Im more comfortable this way. I do do a bit of knee kicking but i am pretty good at maintaining my flutter. I found 1 post about sticking your butt out to push your chest down (another big issue im having trouble with). Ive tried this a few laps and found this helps, but im nervous this might create other issues. Should i pursue the "gorilla butt" technique? I know its hard to critique my swimming without video but the poor student in me would rather eat than get a camera. As a guess I'd say you're not kicking well enough to keep your legs up and are overcompensating by trying to raise your butt up (or head down), which actually makes things somewhat worse. Leg drills. Get rid of that knee kick completely. Don't push your head down. It isn't the root of the problem at all and is making your posture worse. Whereas--esp. after having the opportunity to watch a group of beginners the last three weeks kicking like mad with their hips still sinking like rocks--personally I think the kick has very little to do with body position compared to other elements. I put very little energy into a two-beat kick, myself, and have no issues with hips sinking. I'd go along with the earlier poster who focused on stroke mechanics. If you aren't A) making sure your arm is entering the water properly (i.e., not slapping or grabbing the surface and B) extending/gliding forward sufficiently on the reach and C) pulling with the hand at sufficient depth (as the other poster already suggested), then just dropping the head won't do it. You really need to work on all of these elements in concert. (And kicking, too.) So many of the beginners I was observing lay their hand on the surface of the water to begin their stroke and have a shallow and short pull...they are, in essence, pulling their head and shoulders up out of the water, rather than pulling their whole body through the water. |
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2009-08-20 10:38 PM in reply to: #2361377 |
Extreme Veteran 547 Canyon Hills (Lake Elsinore), CA | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down You might want to look into some core exercises. I know when I get toward the end of a long swim workout my form suffers, my hips sink and I know it's my core that's letting me down. |
2009-08-21 1:09 AM in reply to: #2361588 |
Master 2372 | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down tcovert - 2009-08-20 10:21 PM sand101 - 2009-08-20 7:30 PM mkarr0110 - 2009-08-20 8:02 PM I look down, I've even tried pushing my head down (gets really uncomfortable). did a good bit of searching on these fourms and several people are on the fence even about this. Im more comfortable this way. I do do a bit of knee kicking but i am pretty good at maintaining my flutter. I found 1 post about sticking your butt out to push your chest down (another big issue im having trouble with). Ive tried this a few laps and found this helps, but im nervous this might create other issues. Should i pursue the "gorilla butt" technique? I know its hard to critique my swimming without video but the poor student in me would rather eat than get a camera. As a guess I'd say you're not kicking well enough to keep your legs up and are overcompensating by trying to raise your butt up (or head down), which actually makes things somewhat worse. Leg drills. Get rid of that knee kick completely. Don't push your head down. It isn't the root of the problem at all and is making your posture worse. Whereas--esp. after having the opportunity to watch a group of beginners the last three weeks kicking like mad with their hips still sinking like rocks--personally I think the kick has very little to do with body position compared to other elements. I put very little energy into a two-beat kick, myself, and have no issues with hips sinking. I have found that when folks tend to be knee kickers their hips drop. It is probably a combination of factors and if the OP can manage to get a video we could figure out who's right. ;-) |
2009-08-21 3:13 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down I worked on this a lot in the off season this past year. It is more pushing your chest or t down than your head. In the beginning my coach would say head as it leads the chest but once I got the hang she would say press my chest and keep my head higher as it was to low in the water...she told me to aim for my hairline on my forehead as proper depth for my head. My suggestion is to get the best swim coach you can and work with him/her. On line help can only go so far without seeing you. This was my 5th winter of swim lessons and I finally found a coach that helped me. Other thing I did was so some swimming with pull buoy in every workout. Some say don't use it as it becomes a crutch. What I found is it helped me feel the proper body position and after a few months the difference between with and without became smaller and I found I was in the proper body position just swimming. |
2009-08-21 4:37 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Expert 1690 | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down Hmm that arms angled down thing. Wouldnt that cause pressure on the shoulder especially when you turn to breathe, pushing down on the water to raise the head kinda thing? |
2009-08-21 7:49 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Modesto, California | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down I think you should know there are quick fixes and long term solutions. Strengthening core and swimming more will improve your swim posture and balance over the long term. Pressing the T,lowering your head,kicking more,catch up are all quick fixes. Having a coach will accelerate the process as they will eliminate bad habits that you are doing above and below the water. Its a great feeling to swim fast as a result of many laps! |
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2009-08-21 10:10 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down I "learned" how to kick properly using some blue zoomer fins. Right they taught me how to kick with a straighter leg, from the hip. Any knee bend and you'll induce drag that will slow you down and drop your hips. |
2009-08-21 10:46 AM in reply to: #2361718 |
Extreme Veteran 3177 | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down mkarr0110 - 2009-08-21 2:37 AM Hmm that arms angled down thing. Wouldnt that cause pressure on the shoulder especially when you turn to breathe, pushing down on the water to raise the head kinda thing? I am no expert by any means but a couple of things... First: Have you found you point of balance in the water without swimming? Are you able to lay on your back or your stomach in the water and keep your body level without legs head/chest sinking to much? There are several way to accomplish this through drills but once you have found your balance while floating it is much easier to find and maintain your balance while swimming. Second: Remember that when breathing you should not lift your head at all. if you are rotating your body (hips and shoulders) then breathing simply involves turning your with the rotation at the right time. There should be no pressure on the shoulder. If you find yourself pushing down to get a breath then you are essentially trying to lift your head out of the water. You can swim that way but not efficiantly or comfortably. Third: I would definately recommend swim lessons, either group such as a masters or with a one on one coach. It will help you greatly to analyze what is going on. If that is not an option due to time/cost/whatever check out Total Immersion. I do not use all of it but the drills it provides, both in the book and/or the dvd are a great starter point for finding your balanced position and learning body roll. Good Luck! |
2009-08-21 11:00 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down For me personally, my core is the secret to maintaining good form. I use my core muscles to "push my chest down" and my hips up. This keeps my legs from sinking. At first, it may feel like you're swimming down hill, but the more streamlined position with your lower body parallel to the water surface really reduces the amount of energy you need to expend. |
2009-08-21 11:04 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Extreme Veteran 510 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down Pushing your head down, pressing the buoy/T., etc, does nothing but jack knife your body if you don't use your core to keep your body like a plank. Thinking about raising your hips/butt is the same thing you'll just jack knife your body if you don't activate your core. The imagery that's starting to work for me is to try and raise my hamstrings out of the water, that only way to do that is with your core. If you have the core muscles and just aren't using them you'll make rapid improvements once you get it right. If your short on core muscular strength (me) you'll definitely feel the core working when you swim right, concentrate on this feeling, swim often to build the strength till it happens naturally when your in the water. |
2009-08-21 11:11 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Regular 77 OMAHA | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down I am not trying to be funny here-Try going faster...your body will sink at the waist the slower you go...you cant help it... If that doesnt work for you then I like the idea of making sure you are not just strecthing straight out in front...try a deep angled entry and pull...Kicking doesnt make any difference...most long distance swimmers dont really use their legs much compared to the pool sprints... |
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2009-08-21 11:29 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down My personal experience (and nothing more) is consistent with these bits of advice, that you've already received: 1. Press your chest, not your head. (Pushing the latter down could easily be happening only at the neck, and this will have no effect on your hips and legs). 2. Use your core (and strengthen it if necessary). If your core is not engaged, then it cannot act as the 'pivot point' between your upper torso and your hips and legs. In that case, pushing your upper torso down will have no significant effect on your hips and legs. 3. Nice deep stroke (no inuendo intended...), pushing straight back, not down. |
2009-08-21 11:38 AM in reply to: #2361377 |
Regular 117 Carrollton, TX | Subject: RE: hip sinking keeping me from under 2 minutes!! but my head is down Im also a newb, but I finally, after months of struggling, have been able to swim in a horizontal position (used to drag my legs). What did it for me was not only fully extending myself, including my legs, but also concentrating on feeling my heels come out of the water at the top of my kick. I can now very lightly kick and still stay flat. I'm no expert here, but I'm assuming by keeping my legs straight and kicking at the hip, my heels are forced to come out of the water when I'm in the horizontal position, and I'm assuming by getting my foot just slightly above the water line, it's easier for my feet to "push up" against the water, thus keeping them high. Again, not an expert, just what I noticed worked for me and what my thought process is. |
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