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2009-09-19 9:07 PM

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Subject: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
Hey everyone.

This topic has been initiated on the general triathlon forum, but I thought I'd kick up the discussion here as well.  This linkhttp://www.gotrimax.com/TriMaxEvan.htm will take you to an interview with an athlete I am coaching who is doing IMAZ this November on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance.

The link to the discussion on the general forum is herehttp://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=153794&posts=57&start=1.  It reviews the thoughts of some traditional training views on triathlon and how CrossFit may or may not be a valid training protocol.

Finally, I thought I'd also throw out another link with more updates on how this athlete has been performing, here http://www.crossfitendurance.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=323.... />
I am posting this information as nothing more than information sharing about a drastically different training protocol and its results.  The final vote will not be tallied until Evan crosses the line at IMAZ this Fall, but I think it is a good read for anyone exploring high intensity as a major driver of their long course and ultra course training work.  I look forward to everyone's comments and feedback.

Max
www.gotrimax.com


2009-09-20 7:43 AM
in reply to: #2415708

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
This is interesting solely because Crossfit itself talks about altering and incorporating the regular Crossfit workout to something to supplement sports specific training.
For example, on one guy that did a 100 miler.

"Now CrossFit never claims that the main site workouts are designed to prepare you to run 100 miles"


or from their "what is Crossfit"
"Our program delivers a fitness that is, by design, broad, general, and inclusive. Our specialty is not specializing."


Of course, not that they would not want to see a pure crossfitter do well.
I would be good for business.
2009-09-20 8:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
I don't know very much about crossfit, but how would it prepare a person for a 2.4 mile swim?
2009-09-20 11:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
His journal has some good mileage on it. Looks like he should be able to finish. The question I have is does crossfit actually make the athlete or the endurance training which is just a standarded endurance regiment?
2009-09-20 2:28 PM
in reply to: #2415708

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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
Ok, just read the link that gives Evan's background and training regimen and I see that he'll be doing S/B/R 2x per week each in addition to the regular Crossfit exercises. But he will not be swimming more than 1 mile, biking more than 30 miles (IIRC), or running more than 13.1 miles at a time.

IMHO this is not a smart way to train for an Iron Man. It seems to me that if I had 8 hours per week to train for an IM, I would spend 100% of that time on S/B/R. Not sure how Crossfit would be preferable. The whole thing just seems a little gimmicky to me.

I think this looks like a great way to train for a HIM.

Edit:  Don't mean that Crossfit seems gimmicky, but rather this particular scenario - a guy wants to better his IM time with half the weekly training time and even less S/B/R time.

Edited by ScoopJackson 2009-09-20 2:31 PM
2009-09-21 9:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
ScoopJackson - 2009-09-20 3:28 PM
Edit:  Don't mean that Crossfit seems gimmicky, but rather this particular scenario - a guy wants to better his IM time with half the weekly training time and even less S/B/R time.


See, but here's what you miss.  This guy WAY underperformed his fitness potential in his first IM.  That is, he suffered from poor race execution.  If all he does is execute better, he should be able to beat his old time--even on less IM fitness.  And then we will be told, "See.  CF is a great alternative for IM training.  Look at the results."

It's GIGO.  Garbage in.  Garbage out.


2009-09-21 1:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
seriously all you need for an IM is deep heavy squats.. 
2009-09-21 4:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
JohnnyKay - 2009-09-21 10:43 AM
ScoopJackson - 2009-09-20 3:28 PM
Edit:  Don't mean that Crossfit seems gimmicky, but rather this particular scenario - a guy wants to better his IM time with half the weekly training time and even less S/B/R time.


See, but here's what you miss.  This guy WAY underperformed his fitness potential in his first IM.  That is, he suffered from poor race execution.  If all he does is execute better, he should be able to beat his old time--even on less IM fitness.  And then we will be told, "See.  CF is a great alternative for IM training.  Look at the results."

It's GIGO.  Garbage in.  Garbage out.


Yeah, I stumbled on the thread in the main forum. I'm up to speed now.
2009-09-21 6:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
I find this topic fairly interesting. I have done Crossfit for 2 years and have found that the high intensity work helps me deal with higher HR (swim start and climbing hills when racing) and the mental side of training and racing. I'm training for my first IM but still follow a standard training program along with Crossfit.

Several Crossfit trainers have suggested that I cut down my long rides and runs in place of Crossfit Endurance. Personally I feel that I need the time in the saddle and running to dial in nutrition. I wouldn't trust myself to go out and do an IM on Crossfit and Crossfit Endurance alone. More power to anyone who tries. I would be interested in seeing how Evan does. I would really like to know what his nutrition plan is for the race.
2009-09-21 9:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

Sounds like Monday may be painful.

2009-09-22 12:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

A little off topic but thought people might want to know.

I emailed the author of the article and got this response about Evan's nutrition plan for IM.


"Evan will be using water for hydration, GU for nutrition and Saltstick brand salt tablets for electrolyte management.  Water and electrolyte volume will be based on the heat index of the day, but he will be eating 3 GUs per hour (1 every 20 mins) for nutrition."



2009-09-26 5:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
The only way to simulate mile 139 is to go 139 miles.
2009-09-26 7:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
I like doing tris but my main focus is overall health, strength and fitness.  I have been doing Crossfit since January, starting from the most scaled of the workouts.  My only tri of the year is next week (LA Tri - oly distance) and I am not fully trained for it.  But I am in a lot better position for the amount of s/b/r that I have done than if I hadn't done the Crossfit.  Would I have done more s/b/r if I hadn't done so much Crossfit?   Doubtful. 

Several of my Crossfit trainers do or have done triathlons up to and including IMs.  They say that you can do shorter races of whatever type on Crossfit alone, but most definitely not the longer ones. 

I am thinking about IM next year and one of the trainers told me that I would have to cut back on Crossfit (I go three times per week) to accommodate the s/b/r I would need to do to train for it.  Makes sense to me. 

2009-10-02 12:26 PM
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2010-01-13 12:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
Happy New Year, all.

At the risk of drawing more ire from posting information about CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance protocols, I thought I'd share some more personal experiences with some clients of mine who will be racing in various Ironmans and 70.3 races in 2010.  The blogs listed below feature athletes who will be training virtually exclusively on CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance and will be competing in the following races.

Ironman Japan
Ironman Coeur d'Alene
Ironman Lake Placid
REV3 Half Iron
Patriotman half iron
Timberman 70.3
Busselton half iron (Australia)

I encourage anyone interested in this protocol to review these blogs and see how they perform.  I think you'll enjoy their insights as well as potentially see that there are other ways to skin the half iron and full Ironman cat!

http://00stake.blogspot.com/
http://trimamma23.blogspot.com/
http://marcypicano.blogspot.com/
http://alegassa.blogspot.com/
http://cwunderle.blogspot.com/
http://janetrijourney.blogspot.com/

Max
2011-09-28 7:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

I Did IMWI with nothing else but CrossFit...   I trained a guy whose first triathlon was IM Wisconsin with nothing but CF...   We both finished strong..   

for us, CF works..  



2011-09-28 8:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
I do full IM's on nothing but pushups and eating jello.
2011-09-28 12:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

Gaarryy - 2009-09-21 1:26 PM seriously all you need for an IM is deep heavy squats.. 

 

Hahaha!!!  LMAO.  Sounds like something I would say.

2011-10-06 10:48 AM
in reply to: #2415708


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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

I know many are skeptical of Cross Fit in the endurance sport arena, but I think you should also look at Cross Fit Endurance, which is geared more towards endurance athletes. I have done quite a few sprint tri's before with the long slow method and did not feel like I was making progress in either of s/b/r. I recently trained for( using cross fit endurance) and completed my first HIM solely using cross fit endurance and posted a time of 6.5 hrs, 30 min off my goal time. 

I agree with the need to actually get out there and do the mileage required for each event, which I incorporated into my training schedule. But the benefits rewarded to me from the "cross fit" workouts helped create a solid base performance level that your body can draw on at any time during the race or real life, plus when you are limited on time for actual training (which is really everyone with a real job and life) who has time to put in 4-5 hours a day of training? 

I think this is largely a subjective subject and to each there own. What works in training for one person may not work for the next. I can personally say it worked for me and I will continue using cross fit endurance as my training for a IM FL next Nov. 

 

Just food for thought!

2011-10-06 6:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
AnthonyS - 2011-10-06 10:48 AM

I know many are skeptical of Cross Fit in the endurance sport arena, but I think you should also look at Cross Fit Endurance, which is geared more towards endurance athletes. I have done quite a few sprint tri's before with the long slow method and did not feel like I was making progress in either of s/b/r. I recently trained for( using cross fit endurance) and completed my first HIM solely using cross fit endurance and posted a time of 6.5 hrs, 30 min off my goal time. 

I agree with the need to actually get out there and do the mileage required for each event, which I incorporated into my training schedule. But the benefits rewarded to me from the "cross fit" workouts helped create a solid base performance level that your body can draw on at any time during the race or real life, plus when you are limited on time for actual training (which is really everyone with a real job and life) who has time to put in 4-5 hours a day of training? 

I think this is largely a subjective subject and to each there own. What works in training for one person may not work for the next. I can personally say it worked for me and I will continue using cross fit endurance as my training for a IM FL next Nov. 

 

Just food for thought!

2011-10-06 6:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
AnthonyS - 2011-10-06 10:48 AM

I know many are skeptical of Cross Fit in the endurance sport arena, but I think you should also look at Cross Fit Endurance, which is geared more towards endurance athletes. I have done quite a few sprint tri's before with the long slow method and did not feel like I was making progress in either of s/b/r. I recently trained for( using cross fit endurance) and completed my first HIM solely using cross fit endurance and posted a time of 6.5 hrs, 30 min off my goal time. 

I agree with the need to actually get out there and do the mileage required for each event, which I incorporated into my training schedule. But the benefits rewarded to me from the "cross fit" workouts helped create a solid base performance level that your body can draw on at any time during the race or real life, plus when you are limited on time for actual training (which is really everyone with a real job and life) who has time to put in 4-5 hours a day of training? 

I think this is largely a subjective subject and to each there own. What works in training for one person may not work for the next. I can personally say it worked for me and I will continue using cross fit endurance as my training for a IM FL next Nov. 

 

Just food for thought!



2011-10-06 7:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
AnthonyS - 2011-10-06 10:48 AM

I know many are skeptical of Cross Fit in the endurance sport arena, but I think you should also look at Cross Fit Endurance, which is geared more towards endurance athletes. I have done quite a few sprint tri's before with the long slow method and did not feel like I was making progress in either of s/b/r. I recently trained for( using cross fit endurance) and completed my first HIM solely using cross fit endurance and posted a time of 6.5 hrs, 30 min off my goal time. 

I agree with the need to actually get out there and do the mileage required for each event, which I incorporated into my training schedule. But the benefits rewarded to me from the "cross fit" workouts helped create a solid base performance level that your body can draw on at any time during the race or real life, plus when you are limited on time for actual training (which is really everyone with a real job and life) who has time to put in 4-5 hours a day of training? 

I think this is largely a subjective subject and to each there own. What works in training for one person may not work for the next. I can personally say it worked for me and I will continue using cross fit endurance as my training for a IM FL next Nov. 

 Just food for thought!

Crossfitter's hangup on the term "LSD" or "long and slow" is rediculous.  Not one of the 11 athletes I train with who did an Ironman this season did nothing but LSD.  We all do tempo days, threshold days, hill repeats, intervals and *gasp* a long slow day.  For me, this style of training was across all three sports.  (Not to mention I was doing strength training with the TRX two days a week as well!)

I PEAKED at 16-17 hours for one week and that was with a century ride and a 20 mile run.  Most weeks were ~10 hours until my last big build.  I went 12:07 on a wicked-hot day in Canada (and I was the slow one out of my group.)  I keep hearing Crossfit proponents telling their lemmings that everyone training "traditional" is doing 20-30 hours a week. . .I believe that is so not true, the only people I personally know who train that much are the couple pros here in Eugene (one won Wildflower and the other podiums at both the 70.3 and IM distances.)

On a side note, training for sprints doing nothing but LSD is a huge mistake.  If you train slow, you race slow. . .and sprint does not equal slow. 

XX hours a week of smart SBR will always make someone faster than XX hours a week of CF/CFE.

2011-10-06 7:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance
velasqu7 - 2011-09-28 7:39 AM

I Did IMWI with nothing else but CrossFit...   I trained a guy whose first triathlon was IM Wisconsin with nothing but CF...   We both finished strong..   

for us, CF works..  

Strong finish?

From the blog linked in your sig...

 

I ran the first half, when I got to the special needs bags my feet were already in pain and I just didn’t have it in me to run anymore. I knew I was going to finish, the question was how long would it take me? I changed socks and started to shuffle once again. The shuffle turned into a walk and it remained a walk until about 200 meters off the finish line.

2011-10-09 4:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

Reading through these threads reminds me of the investment banker (I think that was his profession) who finished an IM on almost no training. I think he came in around 15 hours.......I guess no-one really needs to train.

Anecdotes do not equal data.

2011-10-17 9:52 PM
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Subject: RE: Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance

Just read a race report about a guy who used only CFE....http://livingagainstthegrain.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/ironman-canada-2011-race-recap/

Now I'm assuming that this guy started with some base level of fitness.  Can't imagine myself doing an Ironman on such limited LSD training, I'm a novice and I wouldn't have the base fitness or stamina (and hence muscle memory). 

If you are an endurance athlete who trains pretty much all year then I think the program would be great - but for a humble newbie like myself I'll stick to the tried and tested formula of increasing the load !  I'll incorporate some CFE too coz why the heck not! 

I'd like to see some more race reports from first timers....

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