Ironman on nothing but CrossFit and CrossFit Endurance (Page 2)

Wow...it actually looks like a success story, the guy is a stud.  Though after a closer look it appears like he may have succeeded despite the CFE though. . .his goal was a 9:15 finish with a Kona slot and he finished with a 10:30.  He fell apart in ways that seem to be common with CFE athletes (not dialed in on nutrition.)  Either way. . .bravo. . .he beat me by an hour and a half. 

I wonder what this guy's pedigree is though seeing as his first race on Athlinks in 2010 was a sub-5hr 70.3.  I also find it impossible to believe that CFE led him to a sub-hour IM swim without many years of perfecting technique.  I'd love to hear the rest of the story.

FWIW I've seen interviews with the guys who place in those games.  Most augment their training with something besides CF to become elite.  They are not just WOD'ers

Just did my first HIM a couple of weeks back using CF as a base and CFE for my SBR. CF and CFE had really lowered my running times vs long slow distance so I decided to give tri a shot.

I went 6:07 in Austin. Top 1/2 of ag but nothing special. In training my longest bike was 50mi, my longest run was 10mi and my longest swim was a mile. And while my sbr sessions per week were lower than most, the total training time was still about 10 hrs per week. I was at crossfit 4x per week for an hour at a time then each of the sbr's were about an hour on average.

I dont find the crossfit style of training to be a short cut or magic format at all. I got results b/c I worked really hard.

I do belive that the reason that I was able to walk in to tri in june and produce a decent HIM in October is that I was in good general condition to begin with. I will attribute that to crossfit. But it isnt magic. It is just a program of constantly changing, high intensity, whole body movements placed in a competitive setting. I find that something about it makes me work harder than I would alone.

It should also be pointed out that proper nutrition is font and center in crossfit. My body fat as a runner had crept up north of 20%. I thought that I was in shape b/c I ran marathons. It is now 12% and guess what - I run faster. Now, that may seem like a knock on crossfit but it isnt. I had access to the same nutritional information when I trained on my own. But I ate processed foods anyway. My crossfit coach didnt wave a wand over me. He just told me the same things we all know intuitively - eat lean meats, vegetables, some fruits nuts and seeds, little starch and no sugar. Drink water. The difference is that when he said it and I watched the other people in class change around me, I DID IT. And of course, it worked.

YMMV of course but I would suggest to anyone who feels stuck in a rut in terms of thier racing results to give it 6 weeks and see for yourself.

Guess I can't support any of my thoughts with actual data, but with 23 years as a triathlete, a couple years as a CrossFit certified trainer, and a degree in exercise physiology I'm going to throw in my 2 cents.

CF Endurance is great...if you're doing sprints.  It should get you thru a half, and forget it for a full IM.  The reason many athletes see improvement with CF and CFE is that they are very light/weak/non-existant on their anaerobic training, so when they add "speed" work to their LSD, they get faster.

However, one thing that a properly design CF program gives you that you will not get no matter how much you swim/bike/run is improved motor recruitment patterns.  Without getting into the details, your ability to use your muscles is much more intricate than simply how much muscles you have.  Most athletes are familiar with the terms "aerobic" and "anaerobic".  But anaerobic is futher broken down into ATP-CP (or in CF terms, the phosphogenic pathway) and the glycolytic systems.  Endurance athletes rarely train the glycolytic and almost never the ATP-CP. 

But even more critical than the energy pathways, is the neurology that supports the muscles.  The body is designed to be self-limiting to prevent injury.  And easy example of this is the stretch reflex--when your muscle feels like it's getting extended to far it starts to flex so it doesn't tear.  And when we use our muscles, even during a max effort, the reality is not all of our muscles are recruited to due limits in the neural pathways.  Improving your neuromuscular system in these areas is almost impossible swimming, biking and runnning.  Things like plyometrics (like box jumps) and explosive movements (like Olympic lifts of Clean & Jerk and Snatch) are the only way to overcome these built in limiters.

Then there is the core.  Think about this--when you bike one end of your leg pushes on the pedal, the other end pushes on...?  Your core.  If your core is soft you will get the same effect as trying to high jump in the sand--a lot of energy just gets absorbed and lost.  Same for pushing off the ground when you run, or pulling thru the water when you swim.  Situps and planks are nice but situps are often/usually done using your hip flexors instead of your abs, and planks by nature of being a static exercise cannot create the strength gains of a dynamic movement.  So again, 99% of endurance athletes are going to see an increase in performance by strengthening their core which CF does better than most other options.

Obviously I like CF as a basis for tri-ing, but here is where CF endurance fails:  fuel efficiency and economy of motion.  Again without trying to get too technical, your body can get energy from fat or from carbs.  Training LSD improves your bodies ability to use fat as its primary fuel source, such that your limited carbohydrate reserves are available for your anaerobic efforts (getting over a hill, passing someone, accelerating out of a corner, etc.)  There is a reason that the best endurance athletes train INSANE miles--marathon runners have been know to run 250 miles a week!  Without the LSD, you will never develop the mitochondrial count necessary to have the fuel efficiency required to get you thru a longer race.  A couple of other side benefits I'll just mention in passing: capillary density (how well can your body deliver that fuel and oxygen to the muscles) and cardiac stroke volume.  You won't get any of these from high intensity efforts (in fact LACK of LSD training seems to be a big problem for a lot of Cat 4 and 5 cyclists--they always want to go hard.)

Okay, enough for the moment--if you made it this far, here's the summary breakdown of benefits:

• CF: Core, anaerobic energy systems, and muscle recruitment
• CFE: VO2 max training, AT training, at least some sport specific "time in the saddle"
• LSD: Sport specific muscular efficiencys (not to mention just the mental aspect of sitting on your bike for 5-6 hours), fuel efficiency, capillary density.

If you leave out any of these, you'll not be as quick to the finish.  I actually have a few athletes that I'm working with to try and prove this out this year.  I'll keep you posted.  Feel free to email with any questions!

ATG about tree fiddy and qualify for Kona is in the bank!

I think there's a lot of talk about Crossfit and how it translates to endurance activities. For those who have actually DONE crossfit or crossfit endurance and have run a marathon or HIM/IM, I respect your responses.

Here's my story: I did 3 marathons before deciding to take on crossfit endurance. I even hired a crossfit coach and told her that my goal was to run my fastest marathon ever. Before crossfit, my fastest race was a 3:23 marathon time and a 1:35 half marathon time. With all the hype about how crossfit makes you run faster, I took on the challenge. My goal: Run for BQ (Boston)

After 5 months of intense training (I worked VERY VERY hard - I wanted it so much) by going for crossfit 4 times a week and following the sprint runand tempo run programs, I thought I was not only feeling good, but i also looked pretty good. My coach told me that I did NOT need to run more than 12 miles to become a faster racer. Fine - I took her advice.

Come race day: I hit the wall on mile 15. I cramped really badly. I finished the Vancouver marathon SLOWER than my actual time at 3:40. I was so bummed and angry at Crossfit and more specifically, my coach because I literally followed everything that Crossfit endurance had to offer. After my race, I reflected really hard to see what happened. I even went to forums to help me solve this.

Here's is what I learned:

1. CFE is a generalist sport. Not specific. If you want to transform a generalist sport to an individual sport, you NEED to literally mimic the distances. For a marathon, you need to do Crossfit but also need to keep the mileage up on "long run days". The hype of only running 13 miles is a bunch of .

2. CFE can get you through a marathon, but can it get you to go faster? Hell no. For boston? hell no.

3. Crossfit will undoubtedly improve your short distance workouts. Damn - my fastest 5k was 17 minutes. Bow to CF for that - I was really happy. But for endurance, you need to figure out your nutrition plan and everything else around it.

4. Crossfit WILL make you look good. You will see a 6 pac and you will get girls . But...will it make you feel like a real triathlete or runner at longer distance - no. It's not meant to do that.

Bottom line: If you want to hit the finish line hurting? Yes, crossfit can 'help'. Want to hit the finish line strong? Well, you better play the sport and not another: CF/CFE.

Lastly, for those  who finished an endurance sport with good times using CF/CFE, I guarantee you it's because you had a base. If you didn't, you have good genetics and 99.99% of those who replicate what you did won't be able to do what you did. I guarantee it.

I don't hate CF/CFE'ers...After literally spending $250 a month on CF/CFE, $150 on the coach...to think that becoming a performance athlete...is a poor ROI.

I've heard mixed review on CrossFit. I am not a CrossFit athlete, but the training that I have viewed online and a few mixed reviews leave me a little skeptical. If you are have a very strong athletic base (and perhaps have age in your favor), you probably can do the distance on an alternate training program like that. I don't think you would achieve your best possible time though. Additionally, depending on additional factors such as athlete age and even the weather during the event, it would be wise to have experienced some aspects of your planned nutrition strategy before race day. Not being prepared for the mineral and caloric intake requirements could make a short day of it.

MW

I had a bone spur cut out of my toe last year, and the doctor told me that if I continued to do any sort of distance running it would come back.  But I still have an Iron Man on my bucket list.  So based on this, what I'm inferring is that I can do CFE for the Marathon portion (and swim too, although I'm not worried about that part a bit), and get the LSD benefits just by cycling, right?

I've been doing Crossfit for about a year and a half, and I ran a marathon several years ago already.  I'm also an older guy who used to smoke like a chimney, and the last thing I'm worried about is finishing in a certain time--for me it's just the accomplishment of showing up and earning the t-shirt.

@piyushdabomb - I'm sorry you had such a rough experience using CF to reach your running goals.  You are absolutely correct that CF is NOT a running program, and to be a better runner you have to run.  That being said, a CrossFit component to a properly designed program can and will make you a faster runner.  Of course part of what makes a program "properly designed" is that it works for you--everyone has different physiology and responds differently to different stimulus.  As an example, I would point to a friend of mine who ran a marathon with no CrossFit Endurance or run training--his entire training base was normal CrossFit WODs.  His time?  3:20.  Would I recommend that to anyone else?  No chance.  Could he have run faster on a more focused program?  Yup.  But considering that his longest run before the event was some 800's in a WOD, I'd say that's a pretty decent run. 

IMHO, the single biggest weakness to the CFE program is lack of appropriate metabolic training for an event that lasts for hours.  If you train hard all the time, you are primarily training your body's ability to use glucose as an energy source.  Most people cannot contain and consume enough glucose to power them thru an endurance event.  Here is a link that discusses some of the basics of endurance metabolism: http://www.freedomsrun.org/Training/TrainingAerobic.aspx .  Keep in mind that I am not necessarily endorsing the training specifics or methodologies in the article, but their goal of a "bigger engine" is absolutely valid.

@btellington - Yes and no.  The basis for a bigger engine (the goal of LSD) is somewhat sport specific.  The good news for you, is that even some of the die-hard running camps are starting to say that training runs longer than 2 hours are counter-productive.  What I would recommend as a place to start is: like the CFE program, use 4-6 CF WODs as your base and add 2x workouts per week per sport (2 swims, 2 rides, 2 runs).  Unlike CFE, I would suggest you do one of those workouts LSD.  Ride 90+ minutes (no cap on the long end) and run 60-90 (sometimes up to 120, but never over) minutes in zones 1-2. 

Swimming is a bit different, but you said you're good there, so I won't go into that.  For your other weekly workout, I would have you alternate between interval workouts and tempo workouts, going between 30 and 90 minutes on the bike and 30 to 60 minutes on the run.  This should keep you well short of overtraining issues but get you the time and distance you need to be ready for a long day on the race course.  Log everything food and training and pay close attention to your diet and performance and energy levels.  Find what works and get rid of what doesn't.

Obviously there are many other details to fine tune this program (like the often overlooked value of rest days/weeks!), but hopefully it gives you some ideas to work with.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then.  CFE, although I'm not a big proponent, has 2x per week swim, bike, run which would seem pretty sport specific to me.  What athletes will get out of CF is better core strength, improved VO2 max, improved muscle recruitment (neurological development), better muscular balance, reduced injuries, more effecient glycolytic energy pathway, development of the phosphogenic energy pathway, and increased power output.  My experience says that makes for a faster triathlete.  And other than VO2 max increases, these are things that one typically does not get in a standard triathlon training program.  The caveat to that statement of course, is that more and more CF practices (such as functional strength movements) are finding their way into "traditional" tri training--why do you suppose that is?

 Additionally, I think most AGers do triathlons at least partially, if not almost entirely "to be healthy."  And I will guarantee you that CrossFit is in an entirely different league in that regards when compared to tri training. 

  To say crossfit=lifting is kinda like saying owning a bike=cyclist.  CrossFit does incorporate "lifting", but not in the way that most "lifting" happens, and that is only a small part of the equation.

Trust me.  I'm a vet and a moderator on several fitness and lifting boards.  I'm well aware of what Crossfit is and isn't.  Personally I think that in general it's great for the masses as some identify quite well with it and it gives them a group/family type setting that many don't get from a traditional gym.  I also think that some of the movements done for time (Oly lifts for time is dumb and dangerous) make Crossfit dangerous to those same people.  Putting that aside swimming biking and running twice a week will not get you ready for peak performance at an iron distance event.

Yes and no.  Unfortunately there are plenty of CF boxes and trainers that do not have a clue.  Maybe even a higher percentage than other occupations (there are plenty of doctors and car mechanics that don't have a clue either), but that doesn't negate the underlying methodology and science (Izumi Tabata, Stephen Seiler) as well as imperical data on the results OF A WELL DESIGNED CrossFit program.  I am not quite as drunk on the CF cool-aid as many people and agree that there are weaknesses and outright dangerous implementations of it, but I also cannot deny the effects I've seen it have in people's lives and athlete's performances.  And I've been involved in endurance sports since the mid 80's, and have a degree in exercise science, so I like to think I have at least an informed opinion.

To your second point, you're discussing volume, which is different than "not sport specific".  No argument that there is a substantial decrease in volume with this methodology.  And this is where I tend to be more middle ground--I think that with a CF base and appropriate 2x per week training, you certainly can have a great IM experience (at least I plan to in September.  ).  But I also think that the CFE program goes too far and does not include enough volume.

And not to beat the point into the ground, but unless you're a pro, or at least going for a Kona qualifier, I think it makes a whole lot more sense to do training that not only gets you to the finish line quickly, but also improves your ability and function for the office softball team, play soccer with your kids, get a heavy box of books off the shelf, and push a car out of the snow bank (I'm in Minnesota, we do that a lot around here.  )

So you're saying no strength training?  Not even many pure triathlon programs would agree with that.  So if you take the time for "strength" training, why not get more than just strong.  See response below for why "strength" is in quotes.

I don't particularly disagree with you here.  But in practice I see very few triathletes (or runners, or cyclists) put in the effort to develop the glycolytic pathway.  And while ATP-PCr is indeed of minimal benefit to an endurance athlete, I still think it is some benefit and pretty much impossible to train swimming, biking or running.

I never even implied that it did.  Power is work over time.  Powerlifters, while moving insane amounts of weight, do it very slowly and therefore are not particularly powerful.  Olympic lifting, for example, develops a ton of power.  Although not a scientific article per se (sorry, don't have time to look one up) I would submit this article for your consideration: power snatch.  People often gripe about the kipping pullup in CrossFit, but this is EXACTLY the reason it's used--it develops more POWER than a static hang pullup by reducing the time component.

Great thread!  I've been doing CF for almost 12 months straight and added some CFE a few months ago.  I started to follow a complete CFE plan 4 weeks ago prescribed by my local CF box.

I'll be attempting IMWI (09/2012) with CF and CFE... I'm feeling confident since I've PRd in a 1/2 IM and a local sprint tri this season already.

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