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2010-02-23 7:32 PM
in reply to: #2689609

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

hrliles - 2010-02-23 7:27 PM God exist.  He has saved my life twice, that I know of.  Once by having his son die on the cross,  Two, by telling me not to get on a plane one morning, I didn't, it crashed, all died, I lived.  Oh yea, he exists and is right there with you while some of you deny him, now, really. 

And my dogs will be fine, they like meat, any kind. 

God exists.  If you are unsure, call me, I'll walk you throgh it, it's simple.

I am unsure.  I'll send you a PM, because I'd love to know how you're so sure. 

Corollary evidence does not prove anything. 

No disrespect, but arguments/statements like this really shed a horrible light on christians. 



Edited by AndrewMT 2010-02-23 7:36 PM


2010-02-23 7:40 PM
in reply to: #2679411

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
I love you guys, not in a religious or any way but as fellow triathletes.  Believe what you want, everyone's smarter than the next person and out to prove it.  We were all smarter than our parents right?  For me, I know God exists, for you, you have free will.  I would challange you to actually read the Bible.  I turned from God, he brought me back, in a hard way!  I realized he loved me more that I could imagine.

You guys are funny and sometimes to serious.  Hell, aren't we susposed to be training?  Can I use the word Hell here?
2010-02-23 7:42 PM
in reply to: #2689613

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
Damn man, what happened to you in your life to be filled with such brilliant turmoil?
2010-02-23 7:44 PM
in reply to: #2689620

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

hrliles - 2010-02-23 7:40 PM I love you guys, not in a religious or any way but as fellow triathletes.  Believe what you want, everyone's smarter than the next person and out to prove it.  We were all smarter than our parents right?  For me, I know God exists, for you, you have free will.  I would challange you to actually read the Bible.  I turned from God, he brought me back, in a hard way!  I realized he loved me more that I could imagine.

You guys are funny and sometimes to serious.  Hell, aren't we susposed to be training?  Can I use the word Hell here?

You can say hell all you want!

And I have read the bible many times! 

I don't think this has anything to do with intelligence or proving how smart anyone is.  I just think that for such an important topic, there needs to be at least something other than random corollary evidence to make a person believe it could be true. 

2010-02-23 8:35 PM
in reply to: #2679411

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
You seriously want me to call you and discuss this?  Im happy to but there is no way to prove to you what I know.  But I will most certainly call you tomorrow my friend.  If you have caller id it will show "unknown" as I am unlisted.

Edited by hrliles 2010-02-23 8:35 PM
2010-02-23 11:37 PM
in reply to: #2679411

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
I'm sorry, but here's what I absolutely hate about religion: when something good happens or something bad doesn't happen, it's an act of God. When hundreds of thousands die in Haiti, people get killed in 911, or get murdered because of their culture (or religion!) it's all just life and there are no answers. Seriously, is that the best you can come up with????? Tell that to all the people whose family members did not get rescued by 'god'... 

We also haven't started the debate yet about the all the wars, crusades etc because of religion. I guess it was also gods will or was that just life?  

Edited by BenV 2010-02-23 11:37 PM


2010-02-24 7:35 AM
in reply to: #2688108

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
AndrewMT - 2010-02-23 11:18 AM

meherczeg - 2010-02-23 7:17 AM
JoshR - 2010-02-23 8:16 AM
meherczeg - 2010-02-23 6:13 AM

Andrew - I know you don't want to get sucked into a debate, but I will say that I have spent some time learning about other religions (admittedly not studying them in depth as I do my own - Christianity) and most major religions require that theirs is the one true religion, so then I start drilling down and looking for holes within that framework.  Doing a lot of Old Testament study right now and REALLY struggling with Judaism vs Christianity...when you become mature in your faith (generic YOU here) you almost HAVE to challenge it to grow stronger in it.  I may not have the perfect method or all the answers, but I have challenged myself over the last 15 years and consistently come back to Christianity as the answer.


Out of curiosity can you tell us why you keep coming back to Christianity as the answer?


I really don't have time to go into that here!!  Like I said, 15 years of asking Why Jesus?  Leads to a LONG LONG discussion.

A very long discussion indeed!  The spirit of Josh's question remains though; why do you come back to chritianity?  Is it because of the body of evidence, or because of your pre-existing familiarity and comfort level with the teachings?  If you're like me, you were brainwashed from the time you were born to believe in a specific faith, and examining other faiths without bias can be difficult.  (Not looking for an answer here, this is just a thought)

I've spent almost 10 years of very intense study of religion, and have found a complete void of any evidence to make me believe that religion is anything more than a man made institution to help us deal with the fact that life is tough and that we don't have all the answers.  Not a shred of evidence that shows that the christian assertions is even remotely plausible.  And that's with me starting out as a christian in an effort to reaffirm my faith!

I agree that at some point, any person of true faith must challenge their beliefs.  I challenged mine and found them severely lacking. 



you have a good point - and i admitted i don't have the best method.  i don't consider myself brainwashed by christianity - from 13 on i was allowed to decide what i wanted in terms of church.  and i have gone away and come back.  BUT i do start from "christianity is true, now disprove it or prove your religion is true" rather than start from "all religions and non-religion have an equal chance of being true."

i agree that religion is a man-made institution....
2010-02-24 7:49 AM
in reply to: #2689626

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
AndrewMT - 2010-02-23 7:44 PM

I just think that for such an important topic, there needs to be at least something other than random corollary evidence to make a person believe it could be true.

Belief in anything (God, your spouse's love, that your team will win) is a free choice. There's a reason it's called "religious faith" and not "religious knowledge."
2010-02-24 9:14 AM
in reply to: #2689932

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

BenV - 2010-02-23 11:37 PM I'm sorry, but here's what I absolutely hate about religion: when something good happens or something bad doesn't happen, it's an act of God. When hundreds of thousands die in Haiti, people get killed in 911, or get murdered because of their culture (or religion!) it's all just life and there are no answers. Seriously, is that the best you can come up with????? Tell that to all the people whose family members did not get rescued by 'god'... 

We also haven't started the debate yet about the all the wars, crusades etc because of religion. I guess it was also gods will or was that just life?  

Careful, there have been quite a few wars started by those that don't follow a religion or against those with religion by those without.  Wars have nothing to do with religion. 

2010-02-24 9:17 AM
in reply to: #2690097

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

meherczeg - 2010-02-24 7:35 AM you have a good point - and i admitted i don't have the best method.  i don't consider myself brainwashed by christianity - from 13 on i was allowed to decide what i wanted in terms of church.  and i have gone away and come back.  BUT i do start from "christianity is true, now disprove it or prove your religion is true" rather than start from "all religions and non-religion have an equal chance of being true."

i agree that religion is a man-made institution....

Looks like we started off at the same point but came to very different conclusions!  I respect you for taking the time to do the research and study of religion. 

 I do disagree with the notion of assuming your religion to be the truth and then seeking to disprove it.  The nature of an all powerful god is that there is a built in explaination for everything.  Reason, logic and common sense get thrown out the window when the starting assumption is that your religion is true.  A position assertion must be backed up, while the absense of that assertion does not require the same burden of proof. 

Thanks for the discussion!  I hope you realize that any comment I make is inteded as a means of furthering this conversation (which I truly enjoy) and not as a criticism or judgement. 

2010-02-24 9:27 AM
in reply to: #2690130

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

TheSchwamm - 2010-02-24 7:49 AM \ Belief in anything (God, your spouse's love, that your team will win) is a free choice. There's a reason it's called "religious faith" and not "religious knowledge."

I understand your point very well, but I find the concept of "blind faith" to be very repulsive.

Love is not faith.  To compare blind faith in god with love, would be the same as me walking up to a complete stranger and proposing to her and proclaiming my love for her.  My love for my wife was not given blindly.  She earned that love over time while we dated.  The love came from my respect and admiration for her and because we so compatable.  I think that to call love similar to blind faith degrades and destroys everything that is good about love. 

As I stated before, I believe that this is an incredibly important topic to all of us.  Because of that, my belief in a god must be supported by good reason.  If belief in a god is given blindly, then that belief is empty and meaningless.

I realize that the bible glorifies blind faith and condemns the doubter.  That single teaching is exactly what started the questioning of my faith in the first place.  I do not understand how any person can accept being told "don't question this, just accept what your told." 



2010-02-24 10:02 AM
in reply to: #2689932

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
BenV - 2010-02-23 11:37 PM I'm sorry, but here's what I absolutely hate about religion: when something good happens or something bad doesn't happen, it's an act of God. When hundreds of thousands die in Haiti, people get killed in 911, or get murdered because of their culture (or religion!) it's all just life and there are no answers. Seriously, is that the best you can come up with????? Tell that to all the people whose family members did not get rescued by 'god'... 

 

That isn't what I said.  I've had two family members die and not get "rescued."  I don't view death as the worst thing that can happen. 
2010-02-24 12:06 PM
in reply to: #2679411

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
We can all talk about this forever, no one who believes in God will be convinced he's not real, and no one who doesn't believe in God will be convinced he is.  That's just how it is.  No fellow human being can convince someone else.  If anyone really wants to know, then ask Him yourself.

Personally, I'm tired of the subject.  Carry on.
2010-02-24 2:28 PM
in reply to: #2690845

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture

AlanaF - 2010-02-24 12:06 PM We can all talk about this forever, no one who believes in God will be convinced he's not real, and no one who doesn't believe in God will be convinced he is.  That's just how it is.  No fellow human being can convince someone else.  If anyone really wants to know, then ask Him yourself.

Personally, I'm tired of the subject.  Carry on.

Alana, I'm sorry if you were rubbed the wrong way.  Lots of people do change their minds and it's usually through interaction with other people.  Now, whether a forum counts as interaction...that's a different issue!

 

2010-02-24 5:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
AndrewMT - 2010-02-24 2:28 PM

AlanaF - 2010-02-24 12:06 PM We can all talk about this forever, no one who believes in God will be convinced he's not real, and no one who doesn't believe in God will be convinced he is.  That's just how it is.  No fellow human being can convince someone else.  If anyone really wants to know, then ask Him yourself.

Personally, I'm tired of the subject.  Carry on.

Alana, I'm sorry if you were rubbed the wrong way.  Lots of people do change their minds and it's usually through interaction with other people.  Now, whether a forum counts as interaction...that's a different issue!

 



Oh no, not rubbed the wrong way.  How people feel is how they feel, I don't take offense to it. Sorry if that's the impression I left.  I do think a forum is kind of a difficult context, and I really don't have anything meaningful left to contribute.  So, I'll just step aside
2010-02-25 10:37 AM
in reply to: #2690845

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Subject: RE: Caring for Pets Left Behind by the Rapture
AlanaF - 2010-02-24 1:06 PM We can all talk about this forever, no one who believes in God will be convinced he's not real, and no one who doesn't believe in God will be convinced he is.  That's just how it is.  No fellow human being can convince someone else.  If anyone really wants to know, then ask Him yourself.

Personally, I'm tired of the subject.  Carry on.


This is the one biggest difference between most theists and most atheists.

Most atheists are more than open to the idea that they can be wrong.  That's how we learn.  There are lots of very easy ways to present evidence that a deity exists.  If the sum of all of that evidence says to me that there is a greater than 50% chance that a deity exists, then I will all too easily change my mind.

Good luck finding many theists that feel this way.

I've looked long, hard, and far and haven't found any evidence of any deity yet.  If anyone out there has any, I would love to hear it.  Feel free to PM me. 


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