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advice on how to run faster needed
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 2010-03-14 9:53 AM |
Veteran  559  |  Subject: advice on how to run faster neededAt the moment I am happy with my swimming ability and with the bike I do pass more than a few persons on the the road. However with running I suck, I can keep a pace of 10k per hour no problem, but I just do not have the ability no pick up the pace in the last 2-3k of the run. This is toward the end of our season so my last race of the season will be a sprint, after that its duathlons until October, I have 4 weeks to try and get faster on the run..any suggestions? |
| 2010-03-14 10:15 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Expert 1104   Canada | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Looking at your logs, I think you need to increase running volume. You are running about 1-1.5 hours per week, if your log are accurate. Your fade in the last 2-3k, is probably a function of a small running base. Problem is, that increasing for 4 weeks, in a safe manner, may not produce results quickly, but is a great long term plan. Nevertheless, it will definitely help, but be realistic about what to expect in 4 weeks. JMHO |
| 2010-03-14 10:19 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Regular 454 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Looking at your logs, on most week, it looks like you only ran 2 times a week and the mileage varied greatly 7-9 miles in one week and 21 miles the next. As it was sugested to me try and work you way into running at least 4 times a week by breaking you mileage up across more days. Minimum days a week you should run is 3. Age has some factor on this, Galloway suggest most runners in there 40's to 50's limit it to 4 days a week Younger runners can do more. |
| 2010-03-14 10:26 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Expert 2555 Colorado Springs, Colorado | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed The most likely reason your running is weak is because you do so little of it in training. It looks like you average 10-15 miles/week. With such low volume it will take a very long time for improvement, if it ever comes. Four weeks is not enough time for significant improvement from where your current training is. About all you can try is some intervals. Maybe start with 4x400 and progress to 10x400 in a few weeks. However, considering the minimal running you've been doing, any speedwork needs to be approached very cautiously as your legs/muscles/tendons likely do not have enough fitness for the intensity of intervals. Back when I started in triathlon I was told by the coach of the U.S. Olympic Triathlon Team (who was a member of the local tri club) that until I started averaging 30-35 miles/week my running would not show much improvement. I resisted that advice for several years and looked for "easier" methods. So I ended up with dismal results. Once I finally came to terms with the fact that running well requires running more, my ability started to improve. For all but the most genetically gifted, there are no shortcuts. Running well requires a significant amount of volume over a long period of time. That's not going to benefit you now, but embrace this and train for next year. |
| 2010-03-14 10:45 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
| Member 208 Holtsville, Long Island | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed I agree with the others, your running base is on the light side. You need to be running at least three times a week with different intensities. You need to work in long intervals just below your vo2 max in addition to shorter more intense fartlek type efforts. For example, today I did a 10 mile run with three fifteen minute intervals at my 10k pace, about 6:55 pace (a bit below my vo2 max speed). Last Thursday I did an hour run with ten- two minute fartleks almost all out, i.e. at about 5:55 pace. On Tuesday I did a one hour endurance run at about a 7:30-7:45 pace. I have been training like this for about three years and have observed significant improvement in my 10 K and Half Mary times. |
| 2010-03-14 10:51 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Veteran 559 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Thanks guys..I guess its time to hit the tar |
| 2010-03-14 12:01 PM in reply to: #2725309 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Sevenride - 2010-03-14 9:45 AM I agree with the others, your running base is on the light side. You need to be running at least three times a week with different intensities. You need to work in long intervals just below your vo2 max in addition to shorter more intense fartlek type efforts. For example, today I did a 10 mile run with three fifteen minute intervals at my 10k pace, about 6:55 pace (a bit below my vo2 max speed). Last Thursday I did an hour run with ten- two minute fartleks almost all out, i.e. at about 5:55 pace. On Tuesday I did a one hour endurance run at about a 7:30-7:45 pace. I have been training like this for about three years and have observed significant improvement in my 10 K and Half Mary times. I think outside of a few people it is a MUCH smarter approach to work on the number of runs per week, and then lengthen them out rather than running hard/long on that few runs. you'll get the sam/sometimes more benefit from it with a MUCH lower injury risk. |
| 2010-03-14 12:23 PM in reply to: #2725381 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed newbz - 2010-03-14 1:01 PM x2Sevenride - 2010-03-14 9:45 AMI agree with the others, your running base is on the light side. You need to be running at least three times a week with different intensities. You need to work in long intervals just below your vo2 max in addition to shorter more intense fartlek type efforts. For example, today I did a 10 mile run with three fifteen minute intervals at my 10k pace, about 6:55 pace (a bit below my vo2 max speed). Last Thursday I did an hour run with ten- two minute fartleks almost all out, i.e. at about 5:55 pace. On Tuesday I did a one hour endurance run at about a 7:30-7:45 pace. I have been training like this for about three years and have observed significant improvement in my 10 K and Half Mary times. I think outside of a few people it is a MUCH smarter approach to work on the number of runs per week, and then lengthen them out rather than running hard/long on that few runs. you'll get the sam/sometimes more benefit from it with a MUCH lower injury risk. |
| 2010-03-14 12:58 PM in reply to: #2725270 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed LISTEN TO NEWBZ he is a good runner. and +1 on his advice. just run...if you know zones lots of runs in zone 1 & 2. if you don't lots of slow running with increasing distance. build a base after that add intensities.... |
| 2010-03-14 2:41 PM in reply to: #2725381 |
| Member 208 Holtsville, Long Island | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed I agree with you to a certain extent. My point was that the minimal amount of times per week to run is three to get any speed benefit. I think the original poster needs to establish a running base before trying intervals. However, after a running base is built, in order to run faster it is imperative to train with speed at least one to two times per week. |
| 2010-03-14 4:31 PM in reply to: #2725520 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed This is not meant as a personal attack, but do you really think you need to run harder to run faster? That said, if you REALLY are limited to 3 runs a week, then once a base built up yes running harder will help. but i would avoid that approach if at all possible. |
| 2010-03-14 5:21 PM in reply to: #2725270 |
| Member 208 Holtsville, Long Island | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Not taken as an attack but to race faster you need to train faster. I think I made it clear that he needs to establish a base and to run three to four times a week then to train with intensity and speed. |
| 2010-03-14 5:29 PM in reply to: #2725682 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Sevenride - 2010-03-14 4:21 PM Not taken as an attack but to race faster you need to train faster. I think I made it clear that he needs to establish a base and to run three to four times a week then to train with intensity and speed. I really dont think/have plenty of evidence to back it up, that running at a comfortable pace without ANY hard runs will let you keep getting faster for a LONG time. Yes speed work/harder running will push out the last bit, but by and far the largest and longest term gains you will see simply come from just going out and running. Even at 4 days a week. As you introduce harder runs, the injury risk goes up a lot, but the gains you see dont go up a ton. Just as a personal example, until a few weeks ago i ran for 4-5 months at a fairly easy pace-3-6 days a week at first, the last few weeks a bit more. most of this was in the 7-=8:30 range. i raced a 5k after that at 5:45 pace. most people never see the type of volumes that let real speedwoerk show results. You need a pretty solid base to get much out of it. |
| 2010-03-14 5:33 PM in reply to: #2725270 |
| Member 208 Holtsville, Long Island | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Yea, but isn't that what we are talking about-i.e. getting that good base to enable you to do the speedwork to garner faster race results? |
| 2010-03-14 5:36 PM in reply to: #2725270 |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Actually, in looking at all of your training paces, I would put your pace in running just about on par with your swim and bike. Of the three, your swim looks the slowest. With that said, if you want to run faster, run more. Mostly slowly, some a little faster, with a little bit at your intended race pace and a tiny bit above your race pace. |
| 2010-03-14 5:42 PM in reply to: #2725697 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Sevenride - 2010-03-14 4:33 PM Yea, but isn't that what we are talking about-i.e. getting that good base to enable you to do the speedwork to garner faster race results? to a point, yes. I think where we differ (if i read your posts right), the point where more faster work gets added in, and how much is both later, and less with what i am saying. on 4-5 runs a week i would have someone with a solid base do maybe a tempo run per week. the OP is at a speed/volume where he needs to run more, more often. he is no where NEAR needing faster running. If you were running 40-60miles a week, then i would say add in two harder runs, and maybe a 3rd. on 2-3 runs, you just need to run. I think we are saying the same things, just drawing lines in diff places. |
| 2010-03-14 8:04 PM in reply to: #2725693 |
Master 1841 Sendai, Japan | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed newbz - 2010-03-15 7:29 AM Sevenride - 2010-03-14 4:21 PM Not taken as an attack but to race faster you need to train faster. I think I made it clear that he needs to establish a base and to run three to four times a week then to train with intensity and speed. I really dont think/have plenty of evidence to back it up, that running at a comfortable pace without ANY hard runs will let you keep getting faster for a LONG time. Yes speed work/harder running will push out the last bit, but by and far the largest and longest term gains you will see simply come from just going out and running. Even at 4 days a week. As you introduce harder runs, the injury risk goes up a lot, but the gains you see dont go up a ton. Just as a personal example, until a few weeks ago i ran for 4-5 months at a fairly easy pace-3-6 days a week at first, the last few weeks a bit more. most of this was in the 7-=8:30 range. i raced a 5k after that at 5:45 pace. most people never see the type of volumes that let real speedwoerk show results. You need a pretty solid base to get much out of it. I have been doing 4-5 runs per week (all guess-timated zone 2) since the beginning of December - I switched from a 3 per week plan after reading a couple of good threads on this forum. I've held off doing a time trial because I know that requires an all out effort and I wasn't sure my legs were ready for the pounding. Do you think that the increased frequency and volume prepare you for doing time trials and races? Or, do I also need to be adding in a little tempo work, i.e., once a week? |
| 2010-03-14 9:34 PM in reply to: #2725270 |
Elite 3315 Miami | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed i will say from experience since i was never a runner and just by adding volume i was able to pr a 10k...44 min... slow running leads to great gains. |
| 2010-03-14 9:47 PM in reply to: #2725926 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed dcon - 2010-03-14 7:04 PM newbz - 2010-03-15 7:29 AM Sevenride - 2010-03-14 4:21 PM Not taken as an attack but to race faster you need to train faster. I think I made it clear that he needs to establish a base and to run three to four times a week then to train with intensity and speed. I really dont think/have plenty of evidence to back it up, that running at a comfortable pace without ANY hard runs will let you keep getting faster for a LONG time. Yes speed work/harder running will push out the last bit, but by and far the largest and longest term gains you will see simply come from just going out and running. Even at 4 days a week. As you introduce harder runs, the injury risk goes up a lot, but the gains you see dont go up a ton. Just as a personal example, until a few weeks ago i ran for 4-5 months at a fairly easy pace-3-6 days a week at first, the last few weeks a bit more. most of this was in the 7-=8:30 range. i raced a 5k after that at 5:45 pace. most people never see the type of volumes that let real speedwoerk show results. You need a pretty solid base to get much out of it. I have been doing 4-5 runs per week (all guess-timated zone 2) since the beginning of December - I switched from a 3 per week plan after reading a couple of good threads on this forum. I've held off doing a time trial because I know that requires an all out effort and I wasn't sure my legs were ready for the pounding. Do you think that the increased frequency and volume prepare you for doing time trials and races? Or, do I also need to be adding in a little tempo work, i.e., once a week? simply running more will get you much faster. the faster work is going to be a bit dependent on you, and your race goals. generally speaking, the shorter your goal race, the more speedwork needed to bring out the top end speed, but remember even the 5k is a distance event and for most people is between a 20 and 30 min race. it still requires a lot of total miles (consider that top mile runners are still doing 60-80mpw for a 4 min +/- race). I'd say give it a shot or go find a race and do it and see hwo things go. |
| 2010-03-14 10:14 PM in reply to: #2726065 |
Master 1841 Sendai, Japan | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed newbz - 2010-03-15 11:47 AM dcon - 2010-03-14 7:04 PM simply running more will get you much faster. the faster work is going to be a bit dependent on you, and your race goals. generally speaking, the shorter your goal race, the more speedwork needed to bring out the top end speed, but remember even the 5k is a distance event and for most people is between a 20 and 30 min race. it still requires a lot of total miles (consider that top mile runners are still doing 60-80mpw for a 4 min +/- race). I'd say give it a shot or go find a race and do it and see hwo things go. newbz - 2010-03-15 7:29 AM Sevenride - 2010-03-14 4:21 PM Not taken as an attack but to race faster you need to train faster. I think I made it clear that he needs to establish a base and to run three to four times a week then to train with intensity and speed. I really dont think/have plenty of evidence to back it up, that running at a comfortable pace without ANY hard runs will let you keep getting faster for a LONG time. Yes speed work/harder running will push out the last bit, but by and far the largest and longest term gains you will see simply come from just going out and running. Even at 4 days a week. As you introduce harder runs, the injury risk goes up a lot, but the gains you see dont go up a ton. Just as a personal example, until a few weeks ago i ran for 4-5 months at a fairly easy pace-3-6 days a week at first, the last few weeks a bit more. most of this was in the 7-=8:30 range. i raced a 5k after that at 5:45 pace. most people never see the type of volumes that let real speedwoerk show results. You need a pretty solid base to get much out of it. Thanks. I'm signed up for a 10k at the end of April - haven't done a 10k in 9 years so it will be interesting. I will also take a shot at a 5k time trial at the end of March. I have been doing 4-5 runs per week (all guess-timated zone 2) since the beginning of December - I switched from a 3 per week plan after reading a couple of good threads on this forum. I've held off doing a time trial because I know that requires an all out effort and I wasn't sure my legs were ready for the pounding. Do you think that the increased frequency and volume prepare you for doing time trials and races? Or, do I also need to be adding in a little tempo work, i.e., once a week? |
| 2010-03-15 6:08 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
| 10 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed I agree with the ones that said to build your core running up some and the add in a speed workout. 400 repeats are great training for longer quicker endurance. I would go with a 3 times a week schedule if you are biking and swimming still to make sure you do not burn out. 1 long, slow run, 1 speed session of 400 repeats (only slightly faster pace is needed to get beneifts!) and 1 average paced run at an average distance, maybe 8k or so. One question though, are you hydrating lots before runs or during? Eating enough carbs before hand to keep your enegry up? All too often when people go back and log what they are eating they will see a problem causing lack of energy during runs. |
| 2010-03-15 11:12 AM in reply to: #2726198 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Betsys - 2010-03-15 5:08 AM I agree with the ones that said to build your core running up some and the add in a speed workout. 400 repeats are great training for longer quicker endurance. I would go with a 3 times a week schedule if you are biking and swimming still to make sure you do not burn out. 1 long, slow run, 1 speed session of 400 repeats (only slightly faster pace is needed to get beneifts!) and 1 average paced run at an average distance, maybe 8k or so. One question though, are you hydrating lots before runs or during? Eating enough carbs before hand to keep your enegry up? All too often when people go back and log what they are eating they will see a problem causing lack of energy during runs. i think running one or two days per week will do a lot more for him. |
| 2010-03-15 11:30 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Master 1433 Calgary, AB Silver member | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Ok in 2 years I've gone from couth to 60~ min 10K/2hr-HM to 44 min 10K/1:40 HM with virtually all z1/z2 running, 2 -3 times a week. Last few months I've been getting ready for a marthon end of May so my runs are 4-5/week maybe around 40 miles? Should I be adding a tempo or two? Other runners are amazed I do no speed work, but as I'm faster than they are now I'm trying not to drink the kool-aid. I've been well served listening to the advice on this forum so far. (run lots, run easy) |
| 2010-03-15 11:45 AM in reply to: #2725270 |
Veteran 247 Atlanta | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed I'm a slow runner as well. 9:45 per mile. Just getting started running again after many years off. And just wanted to say thanks for all the advice that was given. Of course everyone has their own opinion but at least now I can try some different options. Mostly I think I need to run more miles. I'm going to start with 20 a week and go from there. Currently I'm only doing about 12-15. |
| 2010-03-15 7:06 PM in reply to: #2726869 |
Champion 7233 | Subject: RE: advice on how to run faster needed Khyron - 2010-03-15 10:30 AM Ok in 2 years I've gone from couth to 60~ min 10K/2hr-HM to 44 min 10K/1:40 HM with virtually all z1/z2 running, 2 -3 times a week. Last few months I've been getting ready for a marthon end of May so my runs are 4-5/week maybe around 40 miles? Should I be adding a tempo or two? Other runners are amazed I do no speed work, but as I'm faster than they are now I'm trying not to drink the kool-aid. I've been well served listening to the advice on this forum so far. (run lots, run easy) Yes if you are up to those volumes and have adjusted to the higher load i would add in a tempo run per week. Start with a 2-3 miles or 15-20 min at tempo pace within a 5-7 mile run, once per week, and go from there. |
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