Pick a Side Wisconsin (Page 5)

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TriJedi

2011-02-28 4:01 PM

in reply to: #3375688

Veteran

458

Minnesota

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

jszat - 2011-02-28 12:30 PM

TriJedi - 2011-02-28 12:17 PM

buckybacker05 - 2011-02-28 9:25 AM

Support the bill in it's current form.

What I don't understand is why all union members, especially teachers, think this is such a horrible thing. One of the possible outcomes here is that certain teachers may end up making even more.

Once the unions have been ferreted out of the school system I think it opens the door to more of a merit based pay system. While we could have a separate debate about what constitutes merit measurement for teachers, it is possible that if you are a good teacher, your earning potential may be significantly higher without the union.

I never understood the union mentality. After all, with the goal of treating everyone similarly, how do you determine your own value? Aren't all union members no more valuable than their worst performing member?

Here is where this bill could lead and why many teachers don't like it 1. Loss of job security even if you are a good teacher. 2. Loss of pay, even if you are a good teacher. 3. Loss of of benefits, even if you are a good teacher 4. Less say it what is taught and how it is taught. 5. Decline in teacher quality (good teachers leaving profession and others never entering). The problem with education is that poor decisions are being made at the top. Systems like No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top will continue to fail because they are ill conceived and backward thinking. Merit pay has a lot of issues -- how do you measure teacher quality across a wide range of schools and students, who is responsible for assessing teachers, and how is the integrity of this system maintained? It is interesting that Minnesota, a state at the top of the nation in ACT scores and producing teachers, will be passing legislation to provide alternative teaching licenses. The reason is that they cannot find enough qualified teachers for low-income and inner city schools. As for the union mentality, I guess most teachers aren't defined personally or professionally by being a member of a union. None of the teachers I know and work with went into education so their value could be determined by being in the teacher's union.

Not trying to shoot down anything here but rather state that I dont understand how in the private sector there is the ability to rate employees based on performance but there is a fear to do this in the public sector. I dont know, maybe its just an unknown and the mechanism doesnt exist yet so there is a fear factor, but why wouldnt there be a way to better rate teachers? I have some say this would fall on the principal, but understanding there are other duties he/she must attend to, perhaps a layer is added that would be responsible for teams of teachers, maybe by grade or specialty. I get that there are differences in necessary skill sets to teach different subjects or different types of students (i.e. those with special needs) but there has to be a structure that could better assess the abilities of a teachers and compensation than simply being there longer or having a more advanced degree (which doesnt necessarily translate to competence). Everything I have seen about the concept of merit pay seems to throw up the hands and say it cant be done. Really? I have a staff that has differing duties. In rating them, take those duties and how proficient they are at them and how they tie into the bigger picture and make assessments on how well they are doing what they are supposed to be doing. There isnt an expectation that their job demands are all the same and they are producing, but they are graded on effectiveness in their roles. Why cant that be done in the public sector? I dont get it.

I have yet to see any merit pay systems that would be fair and effective. There would have to be a system that takes into account more than just test scores. It would need to measure how students are performing when compared to their abilities. It would also need to evalute the teacher in areas within domains like preparation and planning, classroom environment, instruction, and professional responsibilities. Then the system would also need to consider the class size, school resources, ecomomic factors of students, community influence, cultural differences,etc. How do you compare the quality of a teacher in wealthy school district, with low class sizes, involved parents, and high acheiving students to a teacher in a district which is the complete opposite?

If a system would exist, who is responsible for evaluating? Poor teachers are a big complaint involving unions. The unions do offer some protection to these teachers, but I think a lot of blame falls on principals, superintentents, and school boards. Good teachers don't want to work with bad teachers. It makes us look bad and makes our jobs harder. Poor teachers are hired and kept because superintendents and school boards over rule principal's recommendations to non-renew. Some of these teachers are safe because they have a connection to the principal, superintendent or board member. Many bad teachers are the result of those in charge of education not doing their job -- which is to hold those below them accountable. Putting teachers' jobs and finances into educational politics isn't the answer to me.

Force

2011-02-28 4:25 PM

in reply to: #3376136

Master

1529

Living in the past

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

TriJedi - 2011-02-28 4:01 PM I have yet to see any merit pay systems that would be fair and effective. There would have to be a system that takes into account more than just test scores. It would need to measure how students are performing when compared to their abilities. It would also need to evalute the teacher in areas within domains like preparation and planning, classroom environment, instruction, and professional responsibilities. Then the system would also need to consider the class size, school resources, ecomomic factors of students, community influence, cultural differences,etc. How do you compare the quality of a teacher in wealthy school district, with low class sizes, involved parents, and high acheiving students to a teacher in a district which is the complete opposite? If a system would exist, who is responsible for evaluating? Poor teachers are a big complaint involving unions. The unions do offer some protection to these teachers, but I think a lot of blame falls on principals, superintentents, and school boards. Good teachers don't want to work with bad teachers. It makes us look bad and makes our jobs harder. Poor teachers are hired and kept because superintendents and school boards over rule principal's recommendations to non-renew. Some of these teachers are safe because they have a connection to the principal, superintendent or board member. Many bad teachers are the result of those in charge of education not doing their job -- which is to hold those below them accountable. Putting teachers' jobs and finances into educational politics isn't the answer to me.

How about make the peer group part of the recruitment, evaluation and retention process?

I see a laundry list of reasons why something CAN'T be done but it sounds too defeatist for me and if we truly believed this was all about the teaching profession, the children and their education, peer pressure and the good teachers would force improvements and DEMAND that poor teachers be removed.

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Pector55

2011-02-28 8:58 PM

in reply to: #3364899

Champion

5376

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

Interesting for those who have taken an oath to defend the country from enemies foreign and domestic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-nxSRQNmjs&feature=relmfu

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crusevegas

2011-02-28 9:37 PM

in reply to: #3376558

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

Pector55 - 2011-02-28 6:58 PM Interesting for those who have taken an oath to defend the country from enemies foreign and domestic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-nxSRQNmjs&feature=relmfu

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TriRSquared

2011-03-01 7:06 AM

in reply to: #3376558

Champion

7347

SRQ, FL

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

Pector55 - 2011-02-28 9:58 PM Interesting for those who have taken an oath to defend the country from enemies foreign and domestic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-nxSRQNmjs&feature=relmfu

As soon as anyone compares Egypt to Wisconsin they are firmly entrenched in the wackjob category in my book.

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mr2tony

2011-03-01 8:18 AM

in reply to: #3376867

Champion

34263

Chicago

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

TriRSquared - 2011-03-01 7:06 AM

As soon as anyone compares Egypt to Wisconsin they are firmly entrenched in the wackjob category in my book.

Agreed.

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jmcconne

2011-03-02 8:21 AM

in reply to: #3364899

Extreme Veteran

799

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

Every single profession has some way of evaluating the merit of an employee. There are many awards given to teachers based on their achievements. Take away the idea that you need to evaluate every teacher in the public system in one large pool. Make it local and then work to define a process.

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crusevegas

2011-03-02 10:47 AM

in reply to: #3377007

Subject: RE: Pick a Side Wisconsin

mr2tony - 2011-03-01 6:18 AM

TriRSquared - 2011-03-01 7:06 AM

As soon as anyone compares Egypt to Wisconsin they are firmly entrenched in the wackjob category in my book.

Agreed.

What about those who compare it to the anti slave movment?

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buckybacker05