Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it (Page 2)

This is always controversial, and I seem to be in the small minority but here is my point of view:

I havn't read many of the post in reply to the OP, but I am a big proponent of 'breath control'.  I challenge myself at it everytime I swim.  It has made me a MUCH more comfortable open water swimmer.  I easily 'hyperventilate' if the water is less than warm...my breathing becomes 'off' easily.  Improving my breath control has hugely improved my open water performance.

Here's the thing.  Breath control isn't until you pass out.  It's holding your breath for '1-2 more strokes'.  It can get 'uncomfortable' but it's not even close to passing out.  I think that is the big misconception.  Many people say that breathing every stroke or every other stroke is what you should do - why deprive yourself of O2?  Well, you really aren't...it's initially just a knee jerk response from you body to breath as it's never been put into that situation...there is still O2 left in your lungs to use after the 3rd stroke - your body just isn't used to it.

For the last 2 years, I have gone from a comfortable 'breath every 3rd stroke' to breathing every 5-7 strokes.  I just recently achieved an entire workout on 5/5 breathing.  This has allowed me to really swim well in some undesirable open water conditions.  Case in point, Mike and I were shooting video for the AMSSM in Cancun a few years back at their annual meeting.  I swam everyday at the beach and the seas were turbulent...crashing waves, giant swells, ETC...the ONLY way I was able to comfortably swim that was by breath control and being able to hold my breath when a wave crashed on me.  I would have never been able to do that as a 2/2 or 3/3 breather.  I am VERY comfortable in turbulent waters now.

Breath control swimming is easy and not dangerous if done correctly.  I started as a comfortable 3/3 breather.  I started working in 3/4 and 4/4 breathing (which isn't much to ask for of your lungs!)...if I needed a rest and was starting to get out of breath, I went back to 3/3.  I then started doing some 5/5 breathing at the beginning of my swims to get used to that then switched to 3/3 or 3/4 for the bulk of the workouts.  Currently I start every 200 with 50 of 7/7 breathing, then 50 of 5/5 then 100 of 3/4 breathing, repeat for each 200. 400's are not boring to me anymore as you can use breathing patterns to do the entire set and keep it interesting, example:

400 straight as:

50 @ 7/7
50 @ 5/5
100 @ 4/4
REPEAT once then rest for 1-1.5 minutes.  It makes the workout a lot less boring.

This past week I did an entire 2x200 with 5/5 breathing and it was never 'uncomfortable.'  Since you slowly work it in, you never are near the verge of 'passing out'.

Breath control has become a great way to swim at different paces.  I can comfortably swim 5/5 now at 2min/100.  I know that if I swim hard at 3/3 comfortably, that will have at around 1:45.

The other benefit is that I do swim a lot better with less breathing and having to roll over and get a breath.  That first 50 on 7/7 breathing is magical. 

I realize I am an outlier, I do not train by intervals, my goal is to not get fast, I just want to be as comfortable as I can be in any water situation.  Breath control has helped that immensely.

I did post a response in that thread and shared  some thoughts, seems that the folks were interested in something different or I did a poor job communicating.

This is some of the info we currently find relevant in competitive swimming, has been researched, examined, looked over, science used.....It does not mean that it will not change down the road as different studies evolve and come out. In the swimming community, there is a lot of information sharing and coaches of top level swimmers frequently write their findings concluded while observing the world class swimmers.

Answers to questions in order:

1. Yes you can. Apply the building block approach and the principle of progressive overload and you will get there. If the 10 and under kids can do it, you sure can. The question is do you want to.

2. You don't have to and you should not unless we are talking two circumstances:

    a) You are racing 50 and 100 FR

    b) any race, coming off the wall, underwater streamline, braking the water surface tension is always done in a perfect body line to reduce drag and retain speed, therefore competitive swimmers learn to take 2-3 strokes after reaching the surface to delay turning of the head, do you have to do it, no. Distance swimmers are better served maintaining a steady O2 supply.

3. None.

4. Nothing except a few seconds here and there in the pool.

All of this applied in interval training, you are starting many of the intervals with a already incurred oxygen debt, becomes even more challenging to discipline yourself to adhere to no breath in and out of the wall. Don't even worry about it. If you really want to train yourself, start the turns properly during the warm up or do series of very easy 50s with lots of rest, where you focus on the turn only, or get in the middle of the pool and work on "double turn 50s" very easy with a lots of rest. Eliminate all the O2 debt before every interval. than start carrying that into 75s and 100s, later longer intervals, progressive overload, remember.

Hypoxic training as I mentioned in the other thread is used to a great deal among old school coaches, where in the modern age only targeted use for a small group of specialist swimmers that is part of their racing startegy.

Just remember, uniform agreement in the swimming community is that breathing disrupts the perfect body line, slows the swimmer down. So does the O2 debt in the late stages of 200-1500FR races, the longer the race the more detrimental effect of inadequate O2 supply . It is a balancing act that every swimmer and coach evaluate based on events the swimmers is training for.

While this all makes sense, I read this and I keep thinking, "maybe" and "it depends".

You say you are imprinting a less efficient struggle to keep up stroke rather than your best form - well maybe you are training yourself to maintain your best form while under stress, it depends on what happens before you pop.  Personally I can hold my pace times pretty consistent before I blow up.  I don't just get slower and slower, it's hold.. hold..hold...hold... FAIL.

I can't say I agree with the last paragraph.  Unless you are way out of your league, pushing yourself to keep up with your lane is probably one of the best ways to get fast, faster.

x2 on this.  I'll focus a little on turns during warmup swims or easy 50's and 100's during workout.  Cool downs also.  Then when I do my first or second 50 or 100 during a workout, I'll make a solid attempt at having a good turn, not breathing flag to flag.  After that, all bets are off as I'm swimming tough intervals and I'll take that breathe near the wall!

I looked at your race logs and your swims look solid, so just keep swimming strong and baby steps with the turns, you'll be fine.

My experience is the same as the bolded part.  When I get tired, I don't think about swimming harder, I think about maintaining form in spite of the fatigue.  Gradually, the RPE builds until I've finished the set, or everything blows up and I cut the set short.  My form doesn't usually just break down gradually, because I'm resisting it the whole time.

OK... Thank you so much EVERYONE.

1.) I see that I'm not crazy that you do indeed need to breath to swim

2.) That I have plenty of room for improvement and that breath control is a proven way to shave time in a pool, but you can't get around #1.

I move up a lane at masters on speed day because I get enough recovery and I am as fast as them. I have to move down a lane on distance day because the wheels start falling off half way through the main set and I just can't keep up the whole set. The lane down I can make it and I am still pushing myself.

But I just wasn't getting it because when I am at the limit I keep "hearing" I need to do these other things to save time... but I'm already cooked and don't see how that is possible... it isn't. I get it, I'm just cooked.

This... This is where I need to "Suck it up Buttercup" and have the discipline to do it right when I can. I promise, proper flips during the WU and drill set and as far as I can into the MS... then back to it on cool down. I'll take a breath before the wall as long as it does not screw up my timing.

You should carefully judge which lane to enter and how to seed yourself in that lane, so that you are completing the set as intended. You don't want to be training the wrong energy system, one, two, you need to accomplish a certain amount of time/ distance at prescribed intensity in order to stimulate adaptations.

In other words, if it is an endurance set, you should not swim it at threshold and fall apart through 2000 if the set totals 4000. You did not train endurance, in order to keep up, you swam at threshold, but the very short rest that accompanies endurance sets put you over the edge. Just like you do, move down a lane and seed yourself there accordingly. 

Same counts for threshold sets. The recommended total distance for EN2 sets starts at 2000, obviously broken into intervals that have 10-30sec rest. If you blow up at 1500 total by swimming faster and over the threshold, you did not accomplish the required stimulus in order to cause adaptions at that level.

So, yes, pushing in the group works, but there is also a fine line, maintain the stroke integrity first at all cost, don't go over the edge too soon.

You are tough, you will get there, no doubt.

It matters a lot how you release that air after you have taken it. There is no holding it inside, you have to release it in a very measured fashion and properly timed. That will minimize the feeling of controlled suffocation that every turn creates. 

Thanks for the suggestion. My biggest flaw I have been working on is getting long. I can, I just don't. When the wheels start falling off, my stroke just keeps getting shorter and shorter. So next few WU sets I will count my strokes, and use that to help me keep my length and see where I'm at.

Thanks Ron, this is something I have known I need to look at. I breath every stroke... well every two. Same side every stroke. I can breath on my other side, but don't really care for bilateral. If I switch to the other side I can stay there and it feels fine a few strokes later. So I have swam on the "other side" when needed in OW. I have thought about bilateral for odd strokes.

What I did get out of your post is not to just breath willy nilly huffing and puffing. Begin to control my breathing and be able to chnage it for what I'm doing.

Definitely agree with this.  One thing I found helpful is to practice swimming underwater the length of the pool (or as far as you can get).  To successfully do this, I find you have to exhale small amounts as you go across.  I also find it helps to relax and use as little energy as possible.  All good things to carry over.  You can do this swimming free as well, but I like swimming underwater better for this drill (at least to help with relaxation, gliding and learning to exhale - its very meditating). 

For me, flip turns also help with exhaling.  If I dont exhale out my nose when I flip, I get water up my nose.

Thank you very much. Makes a lot of sense. A Lot of what I am missing as a rookie is context. It is difficult to patch everything I hear together. The message becomes meaningless without context. That where you experience guys come in.

OK... So on speed day we get 20 sec with various distances with various easy/sprint in the set. That actually feels right. I go hard, get recovered, hold form. Distance day is 10 sec rest, long sets getting shorter at the end.

So ya, I can't keep up with them in the faster lane. I pop off the back and have to sit out a 100 if I want to stay. Next lane down I can do it, but it takes all I have. So ya.. I don't know if that is what I am "supposed" to be training. I just thought I go hard and I will get faster and gain endurance. I don't know.

If I am doing distance... then how should my set go? How should it feel, what effort should I be doing?

Thanks both...  I breath out continuously. Flips are a little harder... I sort of have to be forceful to keep water out of my nose, so it gets a little tough to have enough for the whole thing. I tend to surface too quick because I have no air left in my lungs. I was swimming in a saline pool but the chlorine pool is really screwing me up. when I get lazy about blowing out it's water in the nose and that has been causing some problems... different thread.

In general, endurance sets are to be accomplished by swimming in Z2, it is not recovery pace swimming, but it is not fast either, about equivalent to what would be your long run or bike effort. 

Endurance sets get hard late in the workout, toward the last quarter, especially if they are prescribed within proper guidelines. You should expect to get challenged late in the set, not early. Hanging on early, you are already over the designated intensity.

If you are to test 1000y/m TT, which we don't do with swimmers, but triathlon community likes it, say your T-pace is 1:30/100y, just for simplicity, you would swim those at 1:40-1:35/100. That should keep you in your endurance Z2 zone. I find that 5 sec slower than T-pace puts most tri swimmers in Z3, so go for the lower end of the range if you know your 1000TT time. That is the system of intensity widely adopted in tri community. USA swimming has a different look on that and allows for little wider window of paces, it is defined as EN1, allows for only 10sec of rest on most short to medium distance intervals. That is a different story. The system makes a different set of assumptions on the train-ability and baseline fitness of swimmers. 

To make it simple, breathing should be one of the parameters you observe, it should not be hard, you should not gasp for air, actually very comfortable. No burn in any muscles. Yes, later in the workout all sorts of tightness will pop it's head, but it is a result of duration of exposure to low level stimulus, not speed.

Speed at which you swim your intervals are the single most important determinant as to which energy system are you training. Make sure you hit those correctly. All other intensity manipulation tools matter less than speed. 

Thanks a ton. The only thing I have had to go on was my last HIM split of 1:30/100. Not a TT test but... I am in the 1:30 lane on speed day and 1:35 lane on distance. If I had to guess, I would say I'm very close to what you are talking about, but maybe just a bit too fast.

I will do a fact finding swim this Wednesday... distance day. All our workouts are 5K yds, but hardly anyone does them all. I have only been doing around 3K. WU is 1K w/ 600 of a drill set followed by the main. I will do the prescribed workout in the 1:40 lane and see how I do for the "whole" workout. I'll focus on breathing, long strokes, proper flips, and see what the set looks like at the end.

My mindset with the group is just to go hard and push myself. Plus I had a layoff and out of swim shape a bit so I just thought it was going to be hard.

If you are asking me... I have never counted strokes. Sure I have as a drill here and there, but not generally. I have no idea what it is now.

I focus on holding form and pace. Turns are the first to go. When I'm tired I have to focus on reach, finishing my stroke, and keeping my head down. At some point I know my stroke gets shorter, I start slipping my weak arm, my head is up because I am lifting to breath.... and I'm spent.