Swimming: Breath control... I don't get it (Page 3)

I led the last half of the distance workout the other day. Some were leaving and the regular "leader" was feeling down... that was the very first time I ever paid attention to the pace clock to make sure I was not going too slow or too fast for everyone. So at least that day I was hitting my lengths spot on to finish out the workout... 21 sec per for the 1:35 lane.

Like I said earlier, I will be doing some fact finding this Wednesday which is distance. And I will get some stroke counts. I'm going to a slower lane, but I will keep flipping and make it the whole workout and see what it looks like. I'll get my stroke counts like you say and see what it comes to.

So far in masters I have just been getting back in shape (I'm there) and pushing myself which is better than last year. But I wanted to join masters to become a "better" swimmer, not just a "harder" swimmer. So I will put some work in and see what happens. Thanks for all the suggestions.

It sounds to me like he's seeding himself properly in the lanes depending on the goal of the workout - maybe pushing it a bit too much on endurance sets.

I will add that based on all the additional information provided last evening, that counting strokes as you suggested will likely provide some important information for how he should continue.

To the OP, how long have you been swimming masters with this group and in your current situation (apologies if you answered that already.....)?

Well I got in the 1:40 lane. There were only 3 of us so I pretty much did as I wanted and stayed out of their way. I warmed up and tried to work ona two beat kick. Hard to do because  finally figured out I do a 6 beat kick. 3 times each side... but I have no idea if my timing is right.

So, I did flips every turn. I think I only did two open waiting for more room. I counted strokes an did some time trials. The drill set was streamlining off the turn, so that was quite well timed. I make make it to the flag no problem. My timing for breathing is off aproaching the wall. I can't seem to get it nailed down. I take a breath as a soon as I pop up.

Warm up... 15/16 spl on a 1:33 pace

Generally went to 17/18 spl depending on how good my streamline was and where I popped out.

Did a 1000 yd TT after about 1-1.5K yds.... 15:44. Can't be certain I counted right, I might have went more. But as it is, pretty disapointed in that time. Thought I could do it faster. I had a few turns that were disaterous... and going by how I did my TT, I definitely need to work on my flips... lots of time there. I did 19 spl. One person left for that so we split the lane so no delays from that.

After I recovered I did a 100 yd sprint... 1:17. Started at 17 spl, ended with 21 to the wall.

Nothing to be ashamed about with that time, pretty solid.

What I did get out of your post is not to just breath willy nilly huffing and puffing. Begin to control my breathing and be able to chnage it for what I'm doing.

My JV coach taught us something that I feel applies here: "your exhaul should be the primary factor that controls your breathing pattern.  After inhaling you should immediately begin a steady, controlled, comfortable exhale.  After you have emptied, you need to be in position to immediately inhale.  You should never hold your breath nor should you rush your exhale."

This might mean bi-lateral breathing for longer/slower sets or every-other stroke when really pushing.  If your breathing cycle is not resonably comfortable, you are either going to hard or not breathing properly.  You CAN get in a very hard workout and make improvements without your breathing becoming unreasonably uncomfortable.  ETA: when you are pushing hard it will be uncomfortable but you need to keep it controlled

Is there a difference?  You're trying to go as fast as possible, right?  if you don't care, don't bother with flip turns.  If you do care, I'd think you would want to get every advantage.

My biggest problem is on turns. I get a last breath and exhale immediately.... but then I need to do it a bit harder to turn and keep water out of my nose... and by then I did not leave enough to get to the surface. My last breath was either too close to the wall and through off my turn, or I exhaled too much to get to the turn and hurt myself after the turn.

I wanted to stay comfortable today so I could work on it and I did. The time trial though really highlighted the problems though.

Breath holding is something you have to train- like anything else. It is also extremely dangerous, so never, ever do it alone or in open water without expert supervision.

Breath holding and free diving is a big sport in some countries, especially around the Mediterrainean (sp...).

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck1SobK2WPU

Ehh... I guess I'm just tired of being in the same place. I have been 1:30 since I started this little endeavor. I would like to see some improvement for some of my work.

... and thanks.

Well I got in the 1:40 lane. There were only 3 of us so I pretty much did as I wanted and stayed out of their way. I warmed up and tried to work on a two beat kick. Hard to do because  finally figured out I do a 6 beat kick. 3 times each side... but I have no idea if my timing is right.

So, I did flips every turn. I think I only did two open waiting for more room. I counted strokes an did some time trials. The drill set was streamlining off the turn, so that was quite well timed. I make it to the flag no problem. My timing for breathing is off approaching the wall. I can't seem to get it nailed down. I take a breath as a soon as I pop up.

Warm up... 15/16 spl on a 1:33 pace

Generally went to 17/18 spl depending on how good my streamline was and where I popped out.

Did a 1000 yd TT after about 1-1.5K yds.... 15:44. Can't be certain I counted right, I might have went more. But as it is, pretty disappointed in that time. Thought I could do it faster. I had a few turns that were disastrous... and going by how I did my TT, I definitely need to work on my flips... lots of time there. I did 19 spl. One person left for that so we split the lane so no delays from that.

After I recovered I did a 100 yd sprint... 1:17. Started at 17 spl, ended with 21 to the wall.

So now what?

I guess I'm on my own if I have no flip turns or mid lane collisions to talk about.

Speed day today and I stayed one lane down... but they were really slow today. Anyway, on the 25 sprints I was keeping 15 spl. Worked on my turns and they are all over the place if I do not look at my knees. Tight and fast if I do that.

I did another 100 yrd sprint because I was not tired. Turns went great and I managed a 1:08 for a new PR! I started at 15 spl and ended with 17 spl. Woo Hoo.

SPL is entirely overrated, under a certain value.  If you are taking fewer than 18 per lap there probably is no real need to obsess further as triathlete.  Getting down to 11 or 12 doesn't get you badge or medal and may or may not indicate any swimming improvement.  When I swim distance I try to decrease my SPL until I know for sure if I'm feeling it for the race.  At that point I will increase my SPL in favor of a faster turnover that uses much less power, but increases speed.  I can do 8 spl or 18 spl, it all depends on the event and speed I want to go.

As to breathing for turns, you should take, at minimum, 2 strokes after your last breath into the wall and no breath until your downward shoulder completes it's first stroke.  Or, to put it simpler, only breathe between the flags.  A decent streamline off the wall will put you a body length past the flags anyway.

I dunno about that.   There are many factors which influence becoming faster.  SPL is a fine instrument for evaluating things but I see way too many tris become obsessed by SPL and never get any faster.  There is always a give and a take with speed.  What makes you go faster can't be sustained for a long time.  Anyway, this is hypertechnical and about 1% of tris will care.  

As to your sister's time, while nice, those are average LCM meter times and pedestrian, at best, SCY times.  I train with an elite amateur and her LCM times will avg 1:21 and SCY 1:07, with top speed well under 1:00 SCY.  We never ever talk about SPL, just about speed.

This is a big pet peeve of mine. What is a "Master's Class?"  Are you a USMS or Canadian Masters swimming certified coach or are you using it generically to refer to a bunch of adults who get together and swim?  There's a huge difference.  

SPL is fine for a newer swimmer but once a level of proficiency is reached it is of almost zero importance.  I train with guys who go 16 SPL, 19 SPL, 11 SPL and they are all fast.  I do agree it is just a number.  

That is truly insane logic.  If dropping your SPL dropped time automatically it would be the be all and end all of swim coaching, but it isn't.  I'm not gonna go from a 1:06/pace on my 1650 to a :56/100 pace by dropping a few strokes per lap, no way.  And, say some swimmer drops that 10 seconds, that next 10 seconds will have nothing to do with SPL, and the 10 after that even less.  In fact, SPL will probably start bumping up again.