Matt Chrabot's Power File From San Diego (Page 2)

Ummm, this is an ITU race where he's cycling for an hour, right? Not the Kona 112 mile bike ride?

I also know a few guys locally (who are pure cyclists) who are 150lbs and push 300watts+ for an hour for TTs, and these guys aren't even Cat2, so it really isn't that impressive sounding to do that. 

Not saying this guy's an animal (he clearly is) - but just that the most 'mortal' sounding of his splits to me was the bike (by a fair margin compared to his run.)

I'm pretty sure way amateur triathletes can push 300watts for an hour versus the number who can run 31:00 in an open 10k. (The surges for sure will be tough to match though - that's what makes it a hard ITU race!)

It seems that you're still hung up on the overall averages when it's the surges that matter (am I misunderstanding?). Both the number of and output of them. And that he did this between the swim and the run. ITU is more about hanging onto the pack than having a strong overall average. What the competition does will dictate what is necessary for the bike split.

Chabrot regularly came in the top 10 in ITU events in 2011.  Doesn't that sort of by definition make him world class?  Do we need another stick?

Doesn't that suggest to you that you're misinterpreting the power file?  I would say that the bike ride he did is on a par with his run.

Sure, I guess so. Again, I explained why I felt that way - yes, there are BIG power spikes which def make the day in ITU, but again, I personally know at least a few amateurs who do 300+watts for an hour, but nobody who can touch a 31:xx 10k who isn't a pro or collegiate runner. I also saw that in one of the stages of the TdF, which ran for nearly 5 hours, one of the pros averaged nearly 340 watts for the final hour, which was pretty insane (with HUGE power spikes), so I thought that a top triathlete might be pretty close to those numbers for the bike leg of a 1 hr race.

But hey, I'm willing to admit that 300watts for an hour with surges is comparable to a 31:xx 5k - just surprises me, that's all.

Love his quote in the comment section at the bottom.  Specifically this one:

My overall Heart rate is probably lower in an ITU event than non-draft, but the big sudden efforts are like stopping to do plyos during a run session.
 

Wait, talking on a tri site, talking about a pro triathlete, talking about an ITU race .. thanks for clearing it up that I was talking about a pro triathlete. No need to be snarky when an opposing position is presented. To address your second point I didn't say know personally, I said "know" as in data .. I was specifically thinking about Faris, around 290 watts, 156 lbs .. also thought about Normann 320watts the one year, but I will state I was wrong on weight, I have met him and he is a small guy but according to the internet he is 76kgs/167lbs.

Here is a link to some of the data: 2peak.com/tools/hawaii3.php

The point I was making has multiple pieces to it.

1. There is no bar to truly judge world class in triathlon. That leads to only judge against data that we do know. In my opinion an FTP of a Cat 1 cyclist is not where I would expect the top of the class pro triathlete to be. I would expect Domestic pro, or bottom end of international pro would be where I expect the FTP should fall. I think that these guys should be able to be a domestique on an UCI pro tour/world tour team. An example to compare domestique tour rider .. Chris Anker Sorensen .. climber, middle of the road guy .. weight listed at 64kg or 140lbs

Here is stage 9 tour de france http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...GREIEURRMBIK6BGWGZOU

~420 watt FTP (based on 311NP at .74IF) vs 316 for charbot

So back to the original statement, when I don't have data to compare against, I have to see where they fall in relation to all cycling and his FTP is not where I think the pro tri ranks should be.

2. The above comments tie to that I think right now the ITU bike leg is completely boring. Be it the fault of the race organizers or the relative strength/weakness of the field. There is no opportunity or you don't see great biking.. the attacks are short lived, many don't work together.. there aren't great moves where people are setup on the bike to win the race, but instead are only setup to win it on the run. Meaning to win an ITU race you better be the 30min or sub 30 run guy, and your bike is just a hang in the pack effort.

3. I don't just jump on peoples jock after seeing a power file. I have no clue what in means in a relative sense. I objectively try to break it down and understand it. This file, to me is not impressive, it is run of the mill. I look at the sport and think that if we want it more exciting we need  a better biker than this. Wellington did a ton for womens ironman by crushing the fields.. in the last few years the women of long course have improved leaps and bounds in comparison to the men to chase that carrot. Browlee has raised the bar of what is expected in a ITU run. The run splits of ITU races have improved a ton in the last few years, yet again with a carrot. A lot of the improvement in a sport comes when someone significantly better moves the field.

4. My usage of world class is limited to a special few. Maybe my definition is off, (going back to cycling) I don't list every tour rider as world class. I reserve that for the GC contenders, the sprint contenders, the KOM contenders etc.. same with pro trithletes, I save World Class for the contenders in the field when it comes to a race

I'll be the first to admit that the first 20 minutes of an ITU bike are the some of the hardest there is and I've ever experienced. But the premise of the thread is how hard the whole bike ride is. Power number and surges are all fine and good, but what is the result? A few scant seconds under an hour, drafting in a large pack on a pretty flat course. While there are some big efforts for sure, the result is very pedestrian and speaks to the tactics of ITU racing. 17 min swim = elite, 31 min run = ridiculous, 1 hour bike ride while drafting = something I've done on a training ride.

I realize that tactics determine the pace and splits, but I still find it interesting that the overall times haven't moved in over 20 years. Back in the '90's when draft legal all came about I think we all thought the total times would be low 1:40's. Take away the drafting and high tech bikes and Scott Molina and Mike Pigg would have won this race (based on the times).

Be careful thinking that what you see for the average is what he would do in a non-draft tri. It could very likely be well under his capability there.  I would guess that Chrabot could average considerably higher for that. Since this is ITU, it wouldn't have made sense to do any more than needed unless he could get a substantial break from most (or all) of the field. And with the caliber of that field, it wasn't very likely.

You're very hung up on the average and seem to gloss over the surges. The surges are what makes this style hard. It's more that they're trying to wear each other out faster than they wear themselves out. I know you've done some Sufferfest work, so maybe it would help to think of this as being more like Revolver (15 x 1 min sprints, 1 min recovery), than the 20 min blocks (The Hunted or Hell Hath No Fury). You don't care about the overall average in Revolver, you care more about getting the "on" parts as high as you can. You try to put a hurting on the other guy in a way that leaves you less fatigued than him so that you can run better. In non-draft, you get a more steady power profile to get you to the run as soon as possible. In ITU, it's creating space, or hoping to create space later on because the duration doesn't matter as much here.

No, I'm not hung up on the averages at all - I know full well the reality of surge draft-legal cycling. 

I actually suspect that he 'saved some for the run', which I guess is part of my original surprise in the 300 watt figure (versus a higher number), and wouldn't be at all surprised if that was a number of him 'holding back for the run' - in fact, that's what I would expect given his 31:00 10k afterwards. 

A group of nine got off the front in the bike, but only three of them worked (one of those was Chrabot).  Once the second pack caught them, and a few others later (including Macca and Tim Don), there was little organization, although Brownlee did keep the pace pretty high.  At that point, I'd guess that Chrabot just resigned to finish in that pack and so yeah, his effort would have eased up a bit (though he still had to stay in that pack with Brownlee somewhat pushing!).

I agree with you. The swim/bike/run combo is impressive to see, and I cannot even imagine how much it hurts to be on the rivet that long .. Those swims times and run times are impressive .. I like the idea of the sport evolving and improving and the new blood that changes strategies that result in each individuals strengths and weaknesses

Looks like a pretty typical crit file...

I'd like to see any age grouper go swim a hard 1500M (and I mean HARD)...race a Cat 5, hour long crit.....and then go run a 10K.

I bet NO ONE would come within 15 minutes of their open 10K time.

People tend to forget....power spikes are what kill runs. They have an exponential effect on your run. So a power file with a VI of 1.09 is vastly different than a file at 1.00. That's the reason we have power meters....to smooth the effort. That's what makes running easier....consistent effort. It's much, MUCH easier to run after a 40K TT all at the same effort than one spiking all over the place. That's why comparing an age grouper who can hold 300 watts for a Oly bike leg is ridiculous. Take that same AG'er and surge on him 20-30 times and you'll blow the guy to pieces. It's a different skill set and different training.

Racing a tri crit style is INCREDIBLY hard and something most AG'ers have no comprehension of. Keep this in mind...Charbot probably came within about 10% of his open 10k time....

Ain't that the truth.  I've been doing crits over the past year to get a different type of speed training into my workouts.  HOLY MOSES!  First one I did I felt like I had NEVER ridden a bike in my life.  Not from the handling perspective but just the type of race it was.  Totally not used to surges.  I am now and can hang fairly well, including in longer races.  It has made me a stronger cyclist overall. 

But just thinking about doing a crit and getting off and trying to manage a decent 10k has me shaking in my chair. 

really not a fair comparison, considering the distances.  it's much different training and styles to try to make a blanket statement about the talent levels between the two.  It's like saying the guys that win the 400m make the marathoners look like a joke.

Do you forget that Macca was an ITU champion?

That's a really interesting file. Looks like a CAT3 crit to me. They averaged like 25mph.

As a cyclist, I can't stand ITU style racing. It's all about who is the best runner. They might as well cut out the bike portion all together, all it does is slightly fatigue the best runners.