General Discussion Triathlon Talk » A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3 Rss Feed  
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2014-12-04 5:19 PM
in reply to: GMAN 19030

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by Snaaijer  I think one of the only reasons to approach race distance is to keep your mind at ease, but once you've figured out that you can perform similarly (or even better) on consistency, that argument has no merit anymore

For some reason it's very, very hard for people to grasp that very simple concept.

Not saying that going long in training is a bad thing.  It has its place.  People tend to: a) place way too much emphasis on the weekly long workouts (IMO, the long run and long bike are the two most overrated workouts in triathlon), and b) do too many long workouts which can affect recovery (both mental and physical) and future workouts.  I see way too many "I'm going to do six hour training rides every week for 10 weeks" and "I'm going to do 20 mile runs every week" kind of nonsense.  It just isn't necessary.




Agree with this.

my answer would be
2-3 swims of 2000-3000 yds minimum (so 6k-9k a week is a starting point)
running 3-4 x a week, long run max of 10 miles is fine, avg weekly miles 25-30 (minimum)
cycling, 1 long ride of 3 hrs, routine weekend rides of 2-2.5 hrs, total weekly miles ~ 100 (minimum)

to have a comfortable first HIM.

You can train less or you can train more. if you can envision working up to those distances prior to your HIM then you should complete it no problem.


2014-12-04 7:38 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by Snaaijer  I think one of the only reasons to approach race distance is to keep your mind at ease, but once you've figured out that you can perform similarly (or even better) on consistency, that argument has no merit anymore

For some reason it's very, very hard for people to grasp that very simple concept.

Not saying that going long in training is a bad thing.  It has its place.  People tend to: a) place way too much emphasis on the weekly long workouts (IMO, the long run and long bike are the two most overrated workouts in triathlon), and b) do too many long workouts which can affect recovery (both mental and physical) and future workouts.  I see way too many "I'm going to do six hour training rides every week for 10 weeks" and "I'm going to do 20 mile runs every week" kind of nonsense.  It just isn't necessary.




Agree with this.

my answer would be
2-3 swims of 2000-3000 yds minimum (so 6k-9k a week is a starting point)
running 3-4 x a week, long run max of 10 miles is fine, avg weekly miles 25-30 (minimum)
cycling, 1 long ride of 3 hrs, routine weekend rides of 2-2.5 hrs, total weekly miles ~ 100 (minimum)

to have a comfortable first HIM.

You can train less or you can train more. if you can envision working up to those distances prior to your HIM then you should complete it no problem.


When you say "total weekly miles, minimum" do you mean average? For how many weeks? Or working up to that as a longest week?

I'm not sure when I will ever be able to average 100 miles per week cycling.

If I add all that up, your "minimums" would give me a total of about 13-15 hours training per week... is that what people expect to average for a half-iron?

(I'm asking because I'd like to work up to the half-iron distance next year, but the bike is sort of scaring me.)

Edited by jennifer_runs 2014-12-04 7:47 PM
2014-12-04 7:57 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

Originally posted by AdventureBear

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by Snaaijer  I think one of the only reasons to approach race distance is to keep your mind at ease, but once you've figured out that you can perform similarly (or even better) on consistency, that argument has no merit anymore

For some reason it's very, very hard for people to grasp that very simple concept.

Not saying that going long in training is a bad thing.  It has its place.  People tend to: a) place way too much emphasis on the weekly long workouts (IMO, the long run and long bike are the two most overrated workouts in triathlon), and b) do too many long workouts which can affect recovery (both mental and physical) and future workouts.  I see way too many "I'm going to do six hour training rides every week for 10 weeks" and "I'm going to do 20 mile runs every week" kind of nonsense.  It just isn't necessary.




Agree with this.

my answer would be
2-3 swims of 2000-3000 yds minimum (so 6k-9k a week is a starting point)
running 3-4 x a week, long run max of 10 miles is fine, avg weekly miles 25-30 (minimum)
cycling, 1 long ride of 3 hrs, routine weekend rides of 2-2.5 hrs, total weekly miles ~ 100 (minimum)

to have a comfortable first HIM.

You can train less or you can train more. if you can envision working up to those distances prior to your HIM then you should complete it no problem.


When you say "total weekly miles, minimum" do you mean average? For how many weeks? Or working up to that as a longest week?

I'm not sure when I will ever be able to average 100 miles per week cycling.

If I add all that up, your "minimums" would give me a total of about 13-15 hours training per week... is that what people expect to average for a half-iron?

(I'm asking because I'd like to work up to the half-iron distance next year, but the bike is sort of scaring me.)


Longest week of training if you are mapping out a "trajectory" of training. If that all takes you 13-15 hours, that's probabaly too much ... unless your lifestyle allows you that much time with enough lead time to lead up to that.

There are so many variables. I said "complete an HIM comfortably" meaning that you cross the finish line close to your potential with a smile on your face. Close to your potential to me means that your fatigue factor (how much you slow down as distance increases) is in teh 5-10% neighborhood with doubling of distance.

100 miles weekly on bike? 30-40 miles on a weekend and 2 weekday of 15-20 miles. 3 x 15 miles (1 hour) and 1 55 mi (3 hours) on a weekend. = 5 hours for bike. If you're slower than 15 mph, then I'd just substitute those time durations.

Running long run 10 miles, (1.5 -2 hrs) 2-3 weekday runs of 3-5 miles (45 min) ~ 4. 5 hrs

Swimming 2k-3k yards ~ 1 hour or 1.25 hrs 3x week ~ 3 hours. that's 12 hours, not including travel time to the pool.

THat's totally just one example. If your paces are slower, it will take you longer to finish...but i fyou can do the durations above you should be able to finish the race no problem. If you do less than that time duration, you'll just finish slower. If you're much faster, you can get more distance in during the same time.

For a first HIM for a skilled oly distance athlete, I think a 12 hour week with the above guidelines is entirely reasonable.

However...if the ahtlete only has 8 hours to train, scaling back could be long run 8 miles, run 3x week, long bike 2.5 hours, bike 3x/week, long swim 3x, swim 3x / week. It may simply be less comfortable.

You never know...until you go...

Training volume/duratoin is only one set of constraints for an athlete...how you recove,r what your other responsibilities are...so may other considerations. There's no right answer.
2014-12-04 8:50 PM
in reply to: #5071989

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Those are about my speeds- I was counting 30 miles of running in 5 hours and 6k of swimming in 3 hours to get 13 hours- 9k would take me longer and I rounded up to 15 hours.

I think planning for a minimum peak of about 12 hours in a week is reasonable. When people say things like "100 miles per week" it confuses me because I think "per week" means multiple weeks. But maybe it should.
2014-12-04 9:57 PM
in reply to: qrkid

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Originally posted by qrkid

Originally posted by Donskiman

My rule of thumb is weekly volume peaking at roughly three times the race distances for long races like 70.3. In round numbers that's 6000 swim, 150 mile, 40 run. This can vary depending on strengths or weaknesses.

BTW, was your 2000 a continuous swim using flip turns...so no rests or holding onto the walls?



I am assuming you have those numbers as weekly totals as opposed to single longest workout?


Yes, based on what the question was.
"...what weekly target distances would you consider suitable for completely a 70.3?"

My answer did specify weekly volume.
2014-12-05 12:45 AM
in reply to: cassowary


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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Sounds like you like working out, so YES, do the 70.3. Get a training plan and follow it. Be sure to go easy most of the time, and hard about 20% of the time. Don't over-think, and be sure to listen to your body. It's not very complicated.

One issue with the 70.3 would be hydration and nutrition, you'll need to get this dialed in well.

Have fun!


2014-12-05 7:26 AM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3

Originally posted by jennifer_runs Those are about my speeds- I was counting 30 miles of running in 5 hours and 6k of swimming in 3 hours to get 13 hours- 9k would take me longer and I rounded up to 15 hours. I think planning for a minimum peak of about 12 hours in a week is reasonable. When people say things like "100 miles per week" it confuses me because I think "per week" means multiple weeks. But maybe it should.

On the latter part, you're not the only one. I see a fairly significant difference in that distinction.

2014-12-05 8:44 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by jennifer_runs Those are about my speeds- I was counting 30 miles of running in 5 hours and 6k of swimming in 3 hours to get 13 hours- 9k would take me longer and I rounded up to 15 hours. I think planning for a minimum peak of about 12 hours in a week is reasonable. When people say things like "100 miles per week" it confuses me because I think "per week" means multiple weeks. But maybe it should.

On the latter part, you're not the only one. I see a fairly significant difference in that distinction.

I read it the same at first.  My longest weeks for my first HIM were right about 12hrs, which I did twice.  Swimming was in the range cited and my cycling was right about 100mi during those two weeks (little more one, little less the other).  However, in neither of those weeks did I get to 25mi running (coming closer to 20).  Though I did go over 30 during another week when I went on vacation and didn't swim or bike at all.  Importantly, in all the other weeks, I was fairly consistent in my training.  As noted by others, it's not just the longest workout or biggest week.  Its the sum total of your training.

2014-12-05 9:06 AM
in reply to: JohnnyKay

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
This is why I often find discussions of "weekly" mileage frustrating-- people often exaggerate "weekly" and what they really mean is "what I was able to do in my longest week." You say the same thing in running.

I realize that the original question was really about maximum distance, but that's not what many people were answering.
2014-12-05 8:29 PM
in reply to: jennifer_runs

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
Originally posted by jennifer_runs

This is why I often find discussions of "weekly" mileage frustrating-- people often exaggerate "weekly" and what they really mean is "what I was able to do in my longest week." You say the same thing in running.

I realize that the original question was really about maximum distance, but that's not what many people were answering.


I think of approaching that "weekly" volume as being your pathway. If you can do the "weekly" just once...you can do the race. The mroe easily you can do the "weekly" target, the easier your race will go or your race will be faster.

When I say something like "target 100 miles of weekly bike volume", I'm envisioning that if someone is at 30 miles now then they need a plan to get from 30 to 100...at that point add some rest and they are ready to go.

For a more experienced triathlete then may hit the "weekly" volume earlier in the plan because the are currently closer to it. Then you can build some thing from there, either intensity or volume if you have the time, or cycling through multiple training blocks.

infinite variations!
2014-12-05 8:58 PM
in reply to: Jason N

Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3
I did only shorter more intense rides on my first HIM. My legs and lungs were fine on the ride, but my back cramped really bad. Some of it was bike fit, but I learned that the longer rides prepared the rest of my body to sit on a bike that long.


2014-12-06 12:55 PM
in reply to: Jason N

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Subject: RE: A Hypothetical Distance Indicator for 70.3

Originally posted by Jason N

Originally posted by GMAN 19030

Originally posted by Snaaijer  I think one of the only reasons to approach race distance is to keep your mind at ease, but once you've figured out that you can perform similarly (or even better) on consistency, that argument has no merit anymore

For some reason it's very, very hard for people to grasp that very simple concept.

Not saying that going long in training is a bad thing.  It has its place.  People tend to: a) place way too much emphasis on the weekly long workouts (IMO, the long run and long bike are the two most overrated workouts in triathlon), and b) do too many long workouts which can affect recovery (both mental and physical) and future workouts.  I see way too many "I'm going to do six hour training rides every week for 10 weeks" and "I'm going to do 20 mile runs every week" kind of nonsense.  It just isn't necessary.

I agree.  I also think people get caught up too much with strictly distance or time and somewhat dismiss the role of intensity.  They rather go longer and easier than shorter and harder.  Even though it's very much possible to generate more training stress with a shorter and harder workout, while allowing more time for recovery since you're workout is done sooner.

In general, I agree with this (and largely train this way when just keeping in shape or focusing on shorter distances - I like me some intensity, as it's just fun).  However, I think it bears mentioning that people can sometimes go to the opposite side of the spectrum and place too much emphasis on JUST intensity, not total training volume, a la The Time Crunched Triathlete approach.

I used that approach a couple seasons ago for some sprints and Olys.  Loved the training, as I was hammering along most of the time and the total weekly hours were in the 6-8 range.  When I stepped up to HIM distances, I found that approach insufficient to develop the base to take me through ~5 hours of racing without flagging (or even the big days in training).

So, while I suspect strongly that you are NOT advocating an intensity only approach, I just wanted to throw in a balancing comment for anyone who might be stepping up distances.  

And, yes, this is of course based only on my experience, so YMMV!

Matt

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