Swim fitness or technique? (Page 4)

They won't make near the gains they could make under a coach who knows how to build their technique with the same yardage.  I can't possibly see how you can argue that. 

I'm glad you put "coaches" in quotes....because they most certainly are not.  I have quite a bit of respect for what you do and have done, along with a few other coaches who have frequented this board. Your knowledge is extensive...but there is a reason I got separate swim and bike coaches for my kid when he wanted to train seriously...and there is a reason I send him to run clinics put on by top run coaches when it works out. No, I can't say I would turn those duties over to his triathlon coach.....but I wouldn't trade his triathlon coach's knowledge on how to put it all together in a year 'round program.....it's just a lot of work that needs to be managed by someone with that knowledge.

But I've spent considerable time vetting the coaches I pay.....and they are some of the most knowledgeable people in the country.  I'm not about to let someone who took a weekend class to get a coaches certificate handle any of the teaching duties.....and I wouldn't pay a dime to a "triathlon coach" to  teach ANYTHING about how to swim fast.

If you really want to learn to swim fast, find someone who trains fast swimmers.....and watch and listen to what they teach and how they go about it.  There is not a single "junk" yard....it's ALL about learning to swim.

That can happen sometimes. Though I have no idea if what you did should be that way for you.

What I see is a "whoa, that felt REALLY good"....and then a time period of trying to duplicate it.  During that period there is a search to find just what it was that felt so good.....and then you feel it again.  It takes quite a bit of time, and purposefulness for it to become ingrained in your stroke. 

Kicking can be the same.  Raise your hand if you almost go backwards when you kick (if anyone has even tried or suggested that you isolated it).....and using a kickboard to make it down a length of the pool takes forever.  You can fix that, and make yourself a MUCH stronger swimmer in the process (and then forget it all when you listen to a "triathlon coach" say you shouldn't kick much to save your legs while your swimming) by working on pointing your toes and gaining flexibility in your ankles.....but then, only people who can actually swim well do kick sets.  It will also help your swim fitness.

And they didn't teach a single one of those folks to swim (yes, I know who they are)......but they're sure glad SOMEBODY did.   

I don't think there's much question that what you're advocating re: specialist coaches for the individual disciplines with a triathlon coach conducting the orchestra works best in the perfect scenario.  It works well for Jr's situation, because he has the time and lack of responsibilities (mortgage, kids, career, etc.) combined with parents who are willing and able to provide the necessary support (financial, logistic, emotional, etc.).  It's not feasible for the typical AGer, though.  Most don't have the time nor the financial resources to utilize that approach.  They have to make compromises.

As the subject of this thread is a false dichotomy, it's also a false dichotomy to imply that if they're not going to work with high level swimming only coaches, the typical AGer may as well not bother with coaching.

I have a handful of triathletes who swim in a master's program 2 x / week.  I don't provide them any swim coaching with the exception of adding in ows sessions in the weeks prior to races.  Instead, I manage their overall programming and make sure that the master's coach knows what their racing schedule is, so their swim is ready come race day.

I also have athletes who don't swim masters, because either it doesn't work for their schedule, it's not in their budget, or they simply don't enjoy swimming in the team environment.  For those who are local to me, I meet them regularly and provide on deck & in water coaching.  Like many triathlon coaches, I may not be a USA Swimming Level 5 coach, but I'm not without competitive swimming experience either (as both an athlete and an assistant coach).

On average, the master's coached group is slightly faster than the group I coach (but maybe that''s due to fitness, because they have lane mates to push them harder  , but BOTH swim better than their un-coached opponents in races.

Also, to echo what Shane said, very few amateur triathletes have the time to put in the volume (regardless of the quality of their coach) to truly make a difference. 

I get that 100% Don and I agree.  My problem comes when a triathlon coach tries to make themselves out to be a swim coach......because it's not even close.  When vetting coaches for Jr I can't tell you how many "triathlon coaches" tried to tell me that I didn't need a swim coach or a cycling coach, or whatever.  No.

I would just rather have them say that they really don't know $hit about swimming but can help put the yardage together to fit into a program and can help find someone who can teach them to swim.  At least it's honest.  (I am NOT calling out any person on this board......just my observation from quite a few "triathlon coaches".)

Originally posted by gsmacleod

Originally posted by Left Brain And they didn't teach a single one of those folks to swim (yes, I know who they are)......but they're sure glad SOMEBODY did.   

Well to be fair, very few high level swim coaches are teaching anyone to swim either - they're just teaching them how to swim faster. Also, Joel took Simon from a second pack swimmer (go get them on the bike and run) to a first pack swimmer which is why he was in the mix in Beijing. Shane

No, that's not fair.  The high level USA swimming coaches are building the programs that teach people to swim.  Yes, they get the swimmers when quite a bit of the basic work has been done, but to say they are not involved in the teaching is flatly wrong.

Whitfield was one hell of a swimmer when Joel got him.  95% of the people reading this have no idea what it takes to be a 2nd pack swimmer at that level so the comment is somewhat misleading.  He took  swimmer who could hold 1:05-1:10/100 for 1500 and made him a swimmer who could hold 1:00/100 for that distance.  There was no "learning to swim" done there.

That's a good point, and I get it.  I had an athlete who'd swam for Pitt 30 years ago, and was still swimming at a very high level when she came to me, at the age of 50.  She laughed when I said she probably knew more about swimming than I did, and I wanted her to continue with her current swimming coach.  She appreciated my honesty about it, and said she was with me for the overall program that I could provide along with the triathlon-specific coaching, such as rules, strategy, pacing, bike, and especially run training, plus putting it all together.  As a side note, in her only IM, she was 15th female out of the water overall, and went on to nail our projections for her bike and run splits, so the approach can definitely work well.

Yessir!  My comment wasn't meant to devalue what a good triathlon coach DOES brings to the table in any way.  It's invaluable.  I apologize if it came off toward that end.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of that......my problem with this discussion, and swimming discussions in general on this BT board, is that very few people are willing to come out and say; YOU CAN'T SWIM......LEARN TO SWIM!!! 

Instead, we tend to jump right into more time in the pool, or more intervals, or more whatever.  NO......learn to swim!!  There is no shortcut to it.  And for people who swim at the level that most people here do, that starts with technique, and has nothing to do with fitness other than what they will gain from learning to swim (which will be one hell of a lot more than is being touted by elite triathlon coaches who are already coaching people who can swim like fish - SHAME ON THEM!!)

I think that Masters swim groups are very different between groups.  I know there are people who get good instruction there, and then there are groups like the one you describe.  I was in one of the latter groups back in the 80's......no instruction whatsoever, just look at the workouts on a grease board and keep up the best you can.  Improvement was slight for people who hadn't gotten good instruction at some point in their life.

I don't know how old you are, or where you live, but in my area the best swimmers do not swim high school for the reasons you state.  The programs are just very poorly run and coached.  I know that is not the case in all parts of the country.  But the truth is, for high school aged kids with a college future in swimming, it's much more important to participate in Sectional, Zone, and Jr. National meets that are run by USA swimming.....especially for men...that is club swimming.  You really have to be in the very top percentage of school aged boys to go to college on a swim scholarship......high school swimming alone just won't cut it.

If anyone really wanted to become a better swimmer, they could contact the head coach at a local club team and find out where to go for some good instruction.  The coaches of those groups are very dedicated people with HUGE swim backgrounds.  They typically know everyone who is anyone in the swimming world in their area.  They are happy to point anyone in the right direction.