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2016-02-23 2:48 PM

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Subject: help my run form

I have some crazy stuff going on with my form at the moment.  This video was taken while fairly fatigued, this is 6:40 pace.

Help.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHGRh1ySTII



2016-02-23 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: help my run form

It's hard to work on run form with only one angle, and one speed.  Form flaws REALLY show up as speed is increased........sprinting speed.  It's the reason distance runners started doing form drills that only sprinters used to do.

It's possible that there is nothing wrong with your form, or at least nothing that needs fixing......but there is no way to tell from that angle/speed.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-02-23 3:05 PM
2016-02-23 4:02 PM
in reply to: dmiller5

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Subject: RE: help my run form
To me it looks okay, with the caveat that this is a back view and you're running on a treadmill. Keep in mind that the latter changes most people's form somewhat. For example, you appear to be landing pretty flat-footed, maybe heel-striking. But I do the same on treadmills and generally not when running on the road. Not sure why but those things always make me feel unbalanced and I'm aware I'm not really using my normal stride. There doesn't seem to be a lot of wasted motion in upper or lower body, which is good. Your feet aren't coming up very much on each stride but that could be due to fatigue or, again, running on a treadmill. To me it looks slower than 6:40 pace, which actually might be good. You don't look like you're running "hard", so it's efficient. What is it that you think you're doing "wrong"?

I've spent quite a lot of time watching elite runners run (living in Eugene in the summer, where all the fast people race) and to be honest, some of them have pretty unusual form as well. Unless it's a matter of something like extra arm motion that wastes energy (and even then....) most people just evolve the form that's efficient for them over time. Stride drills and the like can help; so does just plain old running and, if the base is there, speed work.
2016-02-23 6:12 PM
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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: help my run form
One of the issues I had with treadmill vs. outdoor was the increased ground contact time (therefore slower turnover rate) on the treadmill. Just a difference I had to be aware of, especially at slower speeds as LB alludes to. It's hard to see from purely a reverse angle though. As the others said.

The trainer in me feels like your torso leans a tad to the right. Could be me grasping at straws though, is there any impingement issue? It is a short snippet of time in the video.

Edited by TJHammer 2016-02-23 6:15 PM
2016-02-23 7:48 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: help my run form

here is a longer video, same pace.  https://vimeo.com/156496200?utm_source=email&utm_medium=vimeo-cliptranscode-201504&utm_campaign=28749

 

i thought the right knee was collapsing in

2016-02-23 7:53 PM
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Subject: RE: help my run form

Keep in mind, Dave.......you can pretty much "coast" on a treadmill....in other words, the speed is built in by the speed of the treadmill.  When you run outside, it's the downward force of your leg that causes (creates) speed.....as opposed to the "forward" push that most people think creates speed.  It's PART of it (the toe off)....but the leg drive is the deal.  On a treadmill at that speed you don't really have to lift your knees (which is one thing I notice you are not doing there) to get the downward force that you need for speed....the belt is doing that for you.

You say you are fatigued but don't say how long you have been on that treadmill.......you look like you are letting it do quite a bit of the work.  That will cause your "form" to look a little wonky.

Again....maybe nothing is wrong.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-02-23 7:57 PM


2016-02-23 10:01 PM
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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: help my run form
Originally posted by Left Brain

Keep in mind, Dave.......you can pretty much "coast" on a treadmill....in other words, the speed is built in by the speed of the treadmill.  When you run outside, it's the downward force of your leg that causes (creates) speed.....as opposed to the "forward" push that most people think creates speed.  It's PART of it (the toe off)....but the leg drive is the deal.  On a treadmill at that speed you don't really have to lift your knees (which is one thing I notice you are not doing there) to get the downward force that you need for speed....the belt is doing that for you.

You say you are fatigued but don't say how long you have been on that treadmill.......you look like you are letting it do quite a bit of the work.  That will cause your "form" to look a little wonky.

Again....maybe nothing is wrong.




Unless at a drag A$$ pace, LB, wouldn't a focus on maintaining a high cadence help keep from dragging that leg backward while coasting on the belt and in turn focus on push off and knee lift/ leg drive?

Edited by TJHammer 2016-02-23 10:01 PM
2016-02-24 8:14 AM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Subject: RE: help my run form

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Left Brain

Keep in mind, Dave.......you can pretty much "coast" on a treadmill....in other words, the speed is built in by the speed of the treadmill.  When you run outside, it's the downward force of your leg that causes (creates) speed.....as opposed to the "forward" push that most people think creates speed.  It's PART of it (the toe off)....but the leg drive is the deal.  On a treadmill at that speed you don't really have to lift your knees (which is one thing I notice you are not doing there) to get the downward force that you need for speed....the belt is doing that for you.

You say you are fatigued but don't say how long you have been on that treadmill.......you look like you are letting it do quite a bit of the work.  That will cause your "form" to look a little wonky.

Again....maybe nothing is wrong.

Unless at a drag A$$ pace, LB, wouldn't a focus on maintaining a high cadence help keep from dragging that leg backward while coasting on the belt and in turn focus on push off and knee lift/ leg drive?

We don't work much on cadence.  We work on high knees, driving the leg down, and getting the foot back up quickly.....all with your shoulders pushing forward, as if falling. If you do that the cadence will come.....no thought necessary.  One of the things we did/do to get runners to feel that is have them do drills dragging a tire across a football field (small trailer tire).  You really have no choice but to do those things in order to generate speed. (you can make a harness for the tire with a couple old bike tire tubes).  I think there is obviously a place for some long, lazy treadmill work when you can't get outside......but it's not the time to work on form.  Crank it way up and increase the incline is the way to do that.

2016-02-24 1:07 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: help my run form
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Left Brain

Keep in mind, Dave.......you can pretty much "coast" on a treadmill....in other words, the speed is built in by the speed of the treadmill.  When you run outside, it's the downward force of your leg that causes (creates) speed.....as opposed to the "forward" push that most people think creates speed.  It's PART of it (the toe off)....but the leg drive is the deal.  On a treadmill at that speed you don't really have to lift your knees (which is one thing I notice you are not doing there) to get the downward force that you need for speed....the belt is doing that for you.

You say you are fatigued but don't say how long you have been on that treadmill.......you look like you are letting it do quite a bit of the work.  That will cause your "form" to look a little wonky.

Again....maybe nothing is wrong.

Unless at a drag A$$ pace, LB, wouldn't a focus on maintaining a high cadence help keep from dragging that leg backward while coasting on the belt and in turn focus on push off and knee lift/ leg drive?

We don't work much on cadence.  We work on high knees, driving the leg down, and getting the foot back up quickly.....all with your shoulders pushing forward, as if falling. If you do that the cadence will come.....no thought necessary.  One of the things we did/do to get runners to feel that is have them do drills dragging a tire across a football field (small trailer tire).  You really have no choice but to do those things in order to generate speed. (you can make a harness for the tire with a couple old bike tire tubes).  I think there is obviously a place for some long, lazy treadmill work when you can't get outside......but it's not the time to work on form.  Crank it way up and increase the incline is the way to do that.




Agree on this. Similarly we use tire drags or sled pushed to put athletes in the right position and learn the mechanics. One thing that alludes a lot of runners is force production into the ground. Use external loading will help teach that process.

Inclines on treadmills are great too. Personally I want people to focus on maximal efficiency when inclined so the reps are short 10-30 seconds, just looking for a good neuro stimulus to have carry over.

On a side note I think too many people focus on the "magical" 90spms for cadence without a focus as to WHY that number is beneficial. Instead look first at getting your feet to strike the ground close to under your hips, whatever cadence that puts you at is probably most optimal for you. Cadence varies, foot positioning doesn't as much.
2016-02-24 1:32 PM
in reply to: bcagle25

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Tyler,
Subject: RE: help my run form

One thing your doing that hasn't been mentioned is excessive rotation in the upper body/arms and your legs are having to compensate for it. You can run holding a standard water bottle with both hands for a couple of weeks, you will definitely will feel the difference holding it going up hill and when you remove the bottle after some runs. This will teach you to use your body evenly, thus more efficiently.   t.  

2016-02-24 6:23 PM
in reply to: 0

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538
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Brooklyn, New York
Subject: RE: help my run form
Originally posted by bcagle25

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by TJHammer
Originally posted by Left Brain

Keep in mind, Dave.......you can pretty much "coast" on a treadmill....in other words, the speed is built in by the speed of the treadmill.  When you run outside, it's the downward force of your leg that causes (creates) speed.....as opposed to the "forward" push that most people think creates speed.  It's PART of it (the toe off)....but the leg drive is the deal.  On a treadmill at that speed you don't really have to lift your knees (which is one thing I notice you are not doing there) to get the downward force that you need for speed....the belt is doing that for you.

You say you are fatigued but don't say how long you have been on that treadmill.......you look like you are letting it do quite a bit of the work.  That will cause your "form" to look a little wonky.

Again....maybe nothing is wrong.

Unless at a drag A$$ pace, LB, wouldn't a focus on maintaining a high cadence help keep from dragging that leg backward while coasting on the belt and in turn focus on push off and knee lift/ leg drive?

We don't work much on cadence.  We work on high knees, driving the leg down, and getting the foot back up quickly.....all with your shoulders pushing forward, as if falling. If you do that the cadence will come.....no thought necessary.  One of the things we did/do to get runners to feel that is have them do drills dragging a tire across a football field (small trailer tire).  You really have no choice but to do those things in order to generate speed. (you can make a harness for the tire with a couple old bike tire tubes).  I think there is obviously a place for some long, lazy treadmill work when you can't get outside......but it's not the time to work on form.  Crank it way up and increase the incline is the way to do that.




Agree on this. Similarly we use tire drags or sled pushed to put athletes in the right position and learn the mechanics. One thing that alludes a lot of runners is force production into the ground. Use external loading will help teach that process.

Inclines on treadmills are great too. Personally I want people to focus on maximal efficiency when inclined so the reps are short 10-30 seconds, just looking for a good neuro stimulus to have carry over.

On a side note I think too many people focus on the "magical" 90spms for cadence without a focus as to WHY that number is beneficial. Instead look first at getting your feet to strike the ground close to under your hips, whatever cadence that puts you at is probably most optimal for you. Cadence varies, foot positioning doesn't as much.


I worked with a someone for a while with the harness and partner assist rip cord for that concentration. Helped with drive and angle. Especially when working to race in some short track masters events. Never really focused on cadence numbers, I just use attention to turnover as a self check when treadmilling. That belt has a way of making you lazy. What I was making an attempt to draw attention to regarding dmillers treadmill run analysis. But you guys explained it even better. And as bcagle said, location of foot strike more important that a magical number. When cleaning up my form, the side view analysis was really a key view to checking that. I don't do incline tmill much, knees aren't thrilled with it

Edited by TJHammer 2016-02-24 6:26 PM


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