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2016-12-06 9:01 PM

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Subject: I can sort of do flip turns
Ok, my goal last month was to be able to to flip turns by this month. Well laziness has killed that goal but I am finally able to get about 25% of the flip turns I try to be semi normal-ish looking/feeling (with me trying about 80%+ of my swim with flip turns). My problem is that I have like 4 seconds I can be underwater before I start flipping out and have to get up for air. A lot of time this means I do the flip turn, am in streamline position (or at least I'm pointing in the right direction...) but then I have to race up to the top and get air and take a huge gasp air in. I'm literally standing about 8 feet away from the wall at this point and then I go right back into my swim. I feel like this is getting better but is this normal? The whole reason I want to do these is because I want to improve my lung capacity and do better in OWS in case I miss a breath. I feel like I'm getting better but then again I also feel like I'm not. I can do 2 or 3 in a row at the most and then I'm pretty much out of steam and the next attempts will fail until the next set starts. Is this normal? Does it get better?

Edited by Blastman 2016-12-06 9:01 PM


2016-12-06 10:52 PM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns

Quick answer- Yes it will get easier. You might also be going too deep in the water as you push off. Experiment with trying to stay closer to the surface of the water, without shooting out like a breaching whale. For a while your lungs will be burning but you'll get the hang of it. I cant remember if you're in masters or have a coach. Is there someone who can watch you and see if there's some glaring issue?

2016-12-07 11:40 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns

That longer wait between breaths will become more normal. You'll also get better at them so you aren't working as hard. It's more folding and using momentum to get around than powering through things. Head ducks well and the legs just come right over. Arms more just hanging out near position for a good streamline off the wall instead of flailing & pulling through. Watching good swimmers in practice when they're not going hard, they're very relaxed in it. Both mentally and in body language. Much less tension than I see in the slower or newer ones.

2016-12-07 6:05 PM
in reply to: Blastman


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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns

It does get better, but I'd also remember to do the following:

 

- You don't want a lollygagging slow flip. You want a tight, fast, and compact flip. You don't have to rush it, but you can try accelerating it a little to see if it helps.

- Remember to accelerate into the wall for the flip turn. Do NOT do the rookie move of slowing down before the wall, which makes the flip really slow and hard to time. 

- There will be a learning curve with your swim pacing compared to open turns. The reality is that right now you're used to swimming slightly faster for 25yds, then taking a 1-2 sec rest break if you open turn at the wall. You lose that rest with the flip turn, AND you can't be gasping for breath as you enter the turn. Slow your swim pace a little and see if you're more relaxed for the turns with less oxygen debt. You'll find that you'll naturally improve your swim speed over time with the steadier flow of the flip turns. 

2016-12-08 11:08 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
I think that's normal. When I started I pretty much had to take an extra breath right before the turn and then immediately breath after.

Longtime swimmers have awesome breath control and they can very slowly let the air out. I apparently do not have that skill so in order to not get watre up my nose during a flip turn I'm letting out a lot of air.

The first time my masters coach suggested working on making those 3-5 underwater dolphin kicks after the wall ... I probably laughed because it seemed impossible. But it does get better. Keep at it.
2016-12-08 8:34 PM
in reply to: miamiamy

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
Thanks for the replies. I do have a swim coach who watches me a few times a month. At the end of the main set we were doing a 3x200 yds set last night. First one I did open turns and was going at 90% pace and did it in 3:05. 2nd one was with turns...3:30 and exhausted (messed up a few for sure). 3rd one no turns, and ~3:07. I do go over pretty quick, it's just that I feel like I need air NOW, even though I'm only under water for a few seconds. I can tell it's getting better...but slowly. Going to keep at it. I'm at the point where I'm trying to do the entire workout, or at least most of it, with flip turns and then take the time hit but just getting discouraged. This is the best time to learn before I get too serious about training.


2016-12-09 8:00 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
I have no advice. I just thought I would chime in because I thought it was funny. I told myself that I would learn flip turns. When I got to the pool last night, I had it all to myself. I was gonna do it! Within 2 minutes, the pool was full, and within 10 minutes, people were sharing lanes. I was too embarrassed to try, and I didn't want to swim into anyone. Sigh. Maybe next time.
2016-12-09 8:37 AM
in reply to: happyscientist

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns

Yea I've tried swimming in lanes that have 5-7 people just milling around at the end of the lane, and the last thing I want to do is attempt a flip turn. I'd probably knock a few teeth out with my heels

2016-12-11 10:55 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
Originally posted by Blastman

Thanks for the replies. I do have a swim coach who watches me a few times a month. At the end of the main set we were doing a 3x200 yds set last night. First one I did open turns and was going at 90% pace and did it in 3:05. 2nd one was with turns...3:30 and exhausted (messed up a few for sure). 3rd one no turns, and ~3:07. I do go over pretty quick, it's just that I feel like I need air NOW, even though I'm only under water for a few seconds. I can tell it's getting better...but slowly. Going to keep at it. I'm at the point where I'm trying to do the entire workout, or at least most of it, with flip turns and then take the time hit but just getting discouraged. This is the best time to learn before I get too serious about training.



I guess I would ask why you feel compelled to learn to flip turn? Is it because your coach is hounding you? Although I can flip turned, and started that way, as professional I no longer do and haven't for many many years. NOT once did I think it hurt me. This is a really old piece I wrote and I don't truly explain some of the benefits of doing open-turns for the sake of brevity, but there are some. Hope it helps:

http://www.thomasgerlach.com/2012/02/flip-turns-vs-open-turns-triat...
2016-12-11 8:53 PM
in reply to: Blastman


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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
Originally posted by Blastman

Thanks for the replies. I do have a swim coach who watches me a few times a month. At the end of the main set we were doing a 3x200 yds set last night. First one I did open turns and was going at 90% pace and did it in 3:05. 2nd one was with turns...3:30 and exhausted (messed up a few for sure). 3rd one no turns, and ~3:07. I do go over pretty quick, it's just that I feel like I need air NOW, even though I'm only under water for a few seconds. I can tell it's getting better...but slowly. Going to keep at it. I'm at the point where I'm trying to do the entire workout, or at least most of it, with flip turns and then take the time hit but just getting discouraged. This is the best time to learn before I get too serious about training.


3:05 200 w/ open turns. . . not bad. . . you've gotten far without knowing how to turn in the pool. If you're getting nervous, sounds like you just need to get more comfortable. Every try doing any drills where you take breathes only after a certain amount of strokes? How about doing a length without a breathe? Maybe give that a try if you're still feeling funny about being underwater on those turns. Maybe also do some breast stroke, you're underwater for quite some time for each length if you're doing it properly.
2016-12-12 11:39 PM
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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
Originally posted by ThomasGerlach ProTri

Originally posted by Blastman

Thanks for the replies. I do have a swim coach who watches me a few times a month. At the end of the main set we were doing a 3x200 yds set last night. First one I did open turns and was going at 90% pace and did it in 3:05. 2nd one was with turns...3:30 and exhausted (messed up a few for sure). 3rd one no turns, and ~3:07. I do go over pretty quick, it's just that I feel like I need air NOW, even though I'm only under water for a few seconds. I can tell it's getting better...but slowly. Going to keep at it. I'm at the point where I'm trying to do the entire workout, or at least most of it, with flip turns and then take the time hit but just getting discouraged. This is the best time to learn before I get too serious about training.



I guess I would ask why you feel compelled to learn to flip turn? Is it because your coach is hounding you? Although I can flip turned, and started that way, as professional I no longer do and haven't for many many years. NOT once did I think it hurt me. This is a really old piece I wrote and I don't truly explain some of the benefits of doing open-turns for the sake of brevity, but there are some. Hope it helps:

http://www.thomasgerlach.com/2012/02/flip-turns-vs-open-turns-triat...


I want to learn it since I feel like it will help me in OWS to deal with miss breaths. So not really coach related...he'd like to see me do them but it's never been an issue. He only try to convince me on the off season and not during the build periods. I'm a decent swimmer in the pool but I just do horrible (compared to my pool times) in OWS. Once I take a wave full of water, I'm done for. I'm in freakout mode and never fully quite recover. Just trying to just used to not always having that air. Also...it's off season so it's sort of like a new thing to play with before I get too crazy with a formal workout schedule starting next month. I kept at it last week but after 2-3 turns, I'm done. I can do 50's "all day" with them because I think I can just handle not having the full breaths for that sort of a distance but 100+ and I'm lucky to get the turn correct without flying out of the water for air.


^
Question about doing breathless swims: Can't do them. Can't even do one length. Swim coach wanted us to do a few a while ago and I couldn't even do one. Maybe 1/2 a length which is weird since I've been swimming a while and I have pretty good fitness otherwise. Been reading about holding breath while sitting (at home) for 20 seconds to help with lung capacity and even that's really hard to get do for me.

Edited by Blastman 2016-12-12 11:44 PM


2016-12-13 6:49 AM
in reply to: Blastman

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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
Originally posted by Blastman


^
Question about doing breathless swims: Can't do them. Can't even do one length. Swim coach wanted us to do a few a while ago and I couldn't even do one. Maybe 1/2 a length which is weird since I've been swimming a while and I have pretty good fitness otherwise. Been reading about holding breath while sitting (at home) for 20 seconds to help with lung capacity and even that's really hard to get do for me.


Don't worry about not being able to swim the length of a pool without taking a breath.

A common drill in swimming is underwater swim the length of the pool.

Back before time when I could swim a 50 sec/ 100 I could not swim the length of the pool under water in 1 breath. Most of kids in the pool could, but they still could not beat me swimming. Holding your breath for a long time does not mean you will be fast.
2016-12-13 8:46 AM
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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns

. ^ Question about doing breathless swims: Can't do them. Can't even do one length. Swim coach wanted us to do a few a while ago and I couldn't even do one. Maybe 1/2 a length which is weird since I've been swimming a while and I have pretty good fitness otherwise. Been reading about holding breath while sitting (at home) for 20 seconds to help with lung capacity and even that's really hard to get do for me.

One trick for swimming underwater laps, slowly exhale when you start to feel you need air.  Letting out the Co2 that builds up will relieve that feeling of needing to take a breath.  Not all at once but in spots as you go.  So if you are trying to do one lap and you said you can make it half way.  Start to let some air out just before half way, then 3/4's and rest at the end of the lap.

Just be careful doing these.  Make sure you do them with someone watching.  Blacking out in a pool is no fun and people have died doing it.  When I was younger I could do almost 75 yds underwater.  I stopped doing more then 50's after trying to go for 75 meters a few times and things were going black.  Last time I did it I stood up and the lights briefly went out. 



Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2016-12-13 8:47 AM
2016-12-13 12:10 PM
in reply to: Blastman


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Subject: RE: I can sort of do flip turns
I tried to do flip turns but almost hurled just trying the first basic somersault. Figured that it was probably a good idea not to do it again
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