Taboo Subject
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2007-02-26 2:41 PM |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: Taboo Subject COJ is one of the best places in America. We can talk about race, politics, religion, and romance and still (mostly) respect each other. In the romance category, we can talk about personality, physical build, grooming habits. Nowhere in America do we talk about class. Education, income, opportunity. Oh, sorry, I just made you cringe. We pretend that we are all the same. OK, here, all of us have computer access at least. All of us can afford a bicycle too, mostly some pretty nice bicycles. So that sorts out a big chunk of the population, but let's the rest of us talk. We have here people who work with their hands, the people who work with words and numbers, we have police officers and teachers and members of the military, people who have more degrees than a thermometer and/or high-prestige jobs, people who work in less flashy positions, people who get paid more or less. And we all (mostly) respect each other. But most Americans don't live the rest of their lives like this. We hang out with, and usually date and marry, people from similar backgrounds to our own. So COJ is the best place to crack this one open. Yeah, it's another dating thread. Anyone here dating or married to someone from a very different economic background than their own? Were there obstacles and challenges? I think it's particularly hard if the woman is viewed as the more "powerful" in society's eyes. A stockbroker can generally marry a nursery school teacher in our society just fine... as long as the stockbroker is male. Many of you want to hit "reply" right now and say, "of course it shouldn't matter, if the two are compatible it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks!" and I'm inclined to agree. But at a certain level, I (okay, I've finally made it to the first person) DO care what my family, colleagues, and professional colleagues are going to think. I get over this hurdle quicker if we're talking about a job that is a service to society: aforementioned teachers, police, military for example. But would I date someone who didn't graduate from college, who makes $20K a year doing something NOT on that list? Am i a snob for even asking? Help me out here, COJ. |
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2007-02-26 2:45 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject I just read that whole post wondering what the heck it had to do with tattoos... |
2007-02-26 2:49 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by SweetK 2007-02-26 2:49 PM |
2007-02-26 2:49 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Does it count that my wife makes a good amount more than me, and always has? |
2007-02-26 2:50 PM in reply to: #703703 |
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2007-02-26 2:51 PM in reply to: #703669 |
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2007-02-26 2:51 PM in reply to: #703686 |
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2007-02-26 3:09 PM in reply to: #703703 |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Scout7 - 2007-02-26 2:49 PM Does it count that my wife makes a good amount more than me, and always has? Yes indeedy. Has it ever been an issue - say with her so-called "peers?" SweetK, I've encountered what you mention many times... yeah, I'm already talking about the minority of men with enough self-confidence to get past that bit themselves. The ones insecure about their "manhood"probably don't even count me as female! |
2007-02-26 3:11 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject I admit that when I used to date, if I went out on a date with a girl from a signficantly different (read: lower) socio-economic level than me I would notice the difference right away, unless she was really hot, then it took me a bit longer. Class isn't so much about money as it is about how you live and what you've experienced. Whether or not a man can handle that his wife out earns him is more his personal problem than it is a class issue. What IS a class issue is if I started dating, say, the daughter of a family that has had money and prestige for 400 years. The Vanderbilts or the Whitneys, families like that. If it happened, it wouldn't last because the family would not accept a middle class man into their midst unless that man had distinguished himself in some other way. Even then, not coming from old money is a serious barrier to entry. The real class barriers in the US (and Canada) are economic (and racial?). How many middle class white people can say they are good friends with poor inner-city black people? How many middle class white people, for that matter, hang out with white people who live in a trailer park (who aren't retired and living in Florida)? Not many, I bet. |
2007-02-26 3:12 PM in reply to: #703762 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject An issue with her peers? Not that I'm aware of. No one has ever asked much about it. But....I'm a highly entertaining person, and do well in group settings. Her current coworkers always ask if I'm going to be meeting up with them all later when they go out for drinks. Her parents weren't real thrilled about her marrying a bartender (at the time). But that had nothing to do with money. |
2007-02-26 3:14 PM in reply to: #703762 |
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2007-02-26 3:14 PM in reply to: #703771 |
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2007-02-26 3:25 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Master 1821 | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject as a grad student in sociology, i talk about this stuff all the time. in dual-earner families with children, when the husband makes less than the wife, he will often do less housework compared to men who earn the same or more than their wives. an explanation for this is that having been raised in a society where the gender norms dictate that men are to be the breadwinners, the man feels his poow wittle ego is bwuised. and so to compensate for a shift in the power dynamics in the relationship and a feeling of being disempowered, he re-asserts his position in the household by shifting even more of the domestic work onto the woman. the woman, also sensing a shift in the power dynamics, will often accept this as a way to try and "balance" the power in the relationship and rather than complain about the extra burden, the woman will grin and bear it. a sociologist, arlie hochschild, has based her career on studying the "second shift"--all the domestic work that's still left to be done at the end of the work day. you can guess who ends up doing the majority. works out to an extra month of work on average per year. |
2007-02-26 3:26 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Elite 3067 Cheesehead, WI | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject I didn't marry until later in life. I was a career girl. I married a man that only finished high school and got a job as a mail man. Ok, great benefits/security but I had a hard time telling my family because i knew they'd think he was not ambitious. Smarts does not have to come from a book but I do agree that men (and women) need some sort of ambition to go after their dream (and it does not mean it has to be big bucks). Anyhow.. I also have had long silences when I told co-workers/associates what he did for a living..then the jokes would ensue. His family does not have any money and are not highly educated but are all wonderfully nice people with nary a phoney bone in them. Our backgrounds and experiences are quite different and deep down I know it can cause mis understandings. I think when it comes to our son, those differences will become more and more evident - i.e. etiquette, schooling, etc.. but as long as we can come to an understanding, its ok. |
2007-02-26 3:27 PM in reply to: #703800 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Interesting. Now I'm gonna have to go and ask my wife if I do enough around the house...... |
2007-02-26 3:31 PM in reply to: #703800 |
Elite 3067 Cheesehead, WI | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject jimbo - 2007-02-26 3:25 in dual-earner families with children, when the husband makes less than the wife, he will often do less housework compared to men who earn the same or more than their wives. an explanation for this is that having been raised in a society where the gender norms dictate that men are to be the breadwinners, the man feels his poow wittle ego is bwuised. and so to compensate for a shift in the power dynamics in the relationship and a feeling of being disempowered, he re-asserts his position in the household by shifting even more of the domestic work onto the woman So, guess I just need to remind him I wear the pants and he'd better get crackin' with the laundry pronto! |
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2007-02-26 3:36 PM in reply to: #703767 |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Opus - 2007-02-26 3:11 PM IClass isn't so much about money as it is about how you live and what you've experienced. Exactly. I purposely LEAVE OUT much of my life when I'm meeting new people - I was raised by professors, have lived in Europe, went to Big Fancy Law School, and so on. How many people feel like they can relate to that? The real class barriers in the US (and Canada) are economic (and racial?). How many middle class white people can say they are good friends with poor inner-city black people? ~snip~ Not many, I bet. Exactly, not many... but I am one of the few. My current best friend is a Salvadorean woman who works at a dry cleaner. And has lived with me in my house for over two years. For most of that time our third roommate was a girl from exactly the background you describe: black, grew up in "housing," family members in legal trouble, constantly profiled at the grocery store. (It was our gallows humor: SWB = "shopping while black." They stopped her no fewer than 3 times outside of our local grocery store to make sure she hadn't stolen anything. That and booty jokes: I'm a white girl who has one!) I have a diverse group of close friends because I go to a diverse church that emphasizes relationships. Our common faith & purpose become more important to use than the typical markers of class, race, and so on. But it's easier to explain lower-"status" friends than boyfriends. Thanks for being honest. Oh, my first kiss was a Whitney, he was slumming it at a middle-class summer camp. Of course at 12 I didn't know any difference until my mother nearly fell over when I told her about my new friend "____ Whitney, who lives in _____. They have horses!" You cite your theoretical Miss Whitney's family as the barrier. What if Miss Whitney didn't care? Would you move forward with a relationship where the girl's family DIDN'T accept you, but she did? |
2007-02-26 3:46 PM in reply to: #703767 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Opus - 2007-02-26 4:11 PM I admit that when I used to date, if I went out on a date with a girl from a signficantly different (read: lower) socio-economic level than me I would notice the difference right away, unless she was really hot, then it took me a bit longer. Class isn't so much about money as it is about how you live and what you've experienced. Whether or not a man can handle that his wife out earns him is more his personal problem than it is a class issue. What IS a class issue is if I started dating, say, the daughter of a family that has had money and prestige for 400 years. The Vanderbilts or the Whitneys, families like that. If it happened, it wouldn't last because the family would not accept a middle class man into their midst unless that man had distinguished himself in some other way. Even then, not coming from old money is a serious barrier to entry. The real class barriers in the US (and Canada) are economic (and racial?). How many middle class white people can say they are good friends with poor inner-city black people? How many middle class white people, for that matter, hang out with white people who live in a trailer park (who aren't retired and living in Florida)? Not many, I bet. I agree with you on all of that. My only thing is the white middle-class people hanging with the poor inner-city black people. Here's another question along those lines: How many middle class suburban black people hang out with poorer inner-city black people? Probably not many there, either. But that would be more of an opportunity thing. I live in a poorer neighborhood, and it is predominantly black. For the most part, everyone is fairly civil to each us, although occasionally we have run-ins with less than desirable people (local crackhead likes to stand outside our house and yell into the night). We don't really hang out with anyone though. No one really seems to hang out with anyone, except the kids. |
2007-02-26 3:47 PM in reply to: #703811 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2007-02-26 4:00 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Pro 4292 Evanston, | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Okay, cool. Notes to self: * If it happens, make sure he's a neatnik. Cleaning not being my strong suit, he'll be forced to pick up the slack! * Make sure we're both good communicators & can come to an understanding about everything important. Both are good advice in general, actually. Thanks all! |
2007-02-26 4:06 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Veteran 407 Dallas, Texas | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject Read "Class" by Paul Fussell. Very accurate (if somewhat dated--not too much, though) and "laugh out loud funny" guide to the American class system. In response to the dating question, no, you are not a snob for asking. Bill |
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2007-02-26 4:08 PM in reply to: #703825 |
Pro 4040 | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject CitySky - 2007-02-26 4:36 PM You cite your theoretical Miss Whitney's family as the barrier. What if Miss Whitney didn't care? Would you move forward with a relationship where the girl's family DIDN'T accept you, but she did? Call me a romantic, but I believe that love conquers all. Class, race, whatever are meaningless when you are in love. In the end we're all the same, the rest are just barriers that we build for ourselves. |
2007-02-26 4:13 PM in reply to: #703711 |
Master 1275 Sonoma County, CA | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject spokes - 2007-02-26 11:51 AM Now that I'm older, though, the number of 'smart cards' you carry isn't nearly as important as how you carry yourself and self-confidence issues to me. I can't believe I"m doing this, but I agree with spokes I've been around the block enough now where I don't care about their economic background as long as they are happy with what they're doing. In the past, though, yes, it did matter to me that the man I was with was "successful" and "ambitious" and a "go-getter". I actually broke up with a guy b/c he didn't have those traits (yes, i was, and at times still can be, pretty shallow). But then I've always appeared to attract or be attracted to guys who made less $$ than I did. (my past life was pretty high paid exec in corporate america) Hmmm, interesting. wonder why? I'm sure there's some deep-seated commitment phobic issues going on there as far as letting someone else have control and me not being able to up and leave anytime I wanted to. But if I had to choose between book smart and street/common sense smart...I'd take street/common sense smart ANY day. |
2007-02-26 4:14 PM in reply to: #703669 |
Master 2571 Tiger's Den | Subject: RE: Taboo Subject My best friend has a law degree and married someone with only a couple of semesters of college. She quit her very profitable job to be a SAHM and is just now going back a few hours a week. It works for them. Her DH is very intelligent and they challenge each other's minds, but he just didn't go to college. All of our friends, including us, come from the same socio-economic class as our spouses, although we are friends with some outside of our so called class. I did date a guy in HS that came from a poor mill village type family. He had 2 brothers. The three boys are now a doctor, a dentist, and a CPA. Interesting topic... |
2007-02-26 4:15 PM in reply to: #703901 |
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