General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Current Ohio river temps Rss Feed  
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2007-08-23 3:34 PM
in reply to: #938159

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

The first ~1/4-1/3 of the swim is upstream on the inside of Towhead Island .  I guess the currents are not as strong there.  Just has me wondering exactly how fast the current actually is there?

I guess for most swimmers, this will be a super fast swim.  Just wondering if a small percentage are going to have trouble just getting around the island. 

-Steve 



2007-08-23 3:42 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

I like this analysis from that "other" site ......

However, swimming against a current for even ~1/3 of the swim can have a dramatic impact on the results. A current of 1mph means swimmers in the 90-120 minute range in a normal swim will be in jeopardy of not even finishing the swim! See below:

35% of the swim against the current and 65% with the current does NOT mean PRs for everyone. It could make for super slow swims for some people. I have no clue how fast the current actually is; however, lets say its 1mph.

A 48 minute IM swimmer is swimming 3 mph. Assuming steady pacing, on the way up he will only be going 2mph. On the way back he will be going 4.
Thats 25.2 Minutes up and 23.4 Minutes back, for a total of 48.6 minutes. The penalty is only 36 seconds for the FOP swimmer if the current is 1mph, and this assumes a uniform flow of water.

A 75 minute IM swimmer is only swimming 1.92 mph. A 1 mph current hurts him a lot. The way out to the turn around will take him 54.8 minutes. The way back will take him 32.1 minutes. Total time is 86.9 minutes, or a ~12 minute penalty.

A 90 minute IM swimmer swims at 1.6 miles per hour.
84 Minutes to the turnaround. 36 Minutes Back. 120 minutes total. 30 minute penalty. Perhaps more for the mental aspect of "going nowhere".

A traditional 2 hour swimmer will not finish the swim in 2:30, as he/she only swims at 1.2 miles per hour in normal conditions. Against a 1mph current he/she travels at .2 miles per hour. Our turnaround is .84 miles away. It would take this swimmer over 4 hours to get to the turnaround.

If they really are swimming against the current, then you can expect some super slow swim times for the BOP swimmers. If the designated area is protected from the currents, then you can expect fast times for everyone.

2007-08-23 4:33 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
I was finally catching Ironman fever when I found this in my email in basket.

August 23, 2007 - Today, Ironman announces a modification to the swim course for the Ford Ironman Louisville. Ironman has implemented its alternative swim course design. On race morning, athletes will walk 3/4 mile from Waterfront Park to the swim start, located at the Brown Forman Amphitheater, just east of Tumbleweed Southwest Grill. Athletes will self-seed themselves at the start based on their projected swim time. A mass swim start will begin at 6:50 a.m. for nearly 40 professional athletes, and a time trial start will follow at 7 a.m. for age group athletes. To reduce athlete congestion during the swim, the time trial start will consist of athletes entering the water every few seconds. Athletes will be required to cross a timing mat before entering the water, to record their official start time. Overall finish times will reflect the time at which each athlete enters the water, vs. the 7 a.m. start time.
So much for my glory.
The reason they gave was too much rain in Ohio meant too strong a current in the river. "equitable course for athletes of all abilities" That is totally unfair. If a storm blows up and it is windy on the bike it the course going to change to protect the week cyclist! No. If it gets too hot on the run will they shorten it for the weaker runners. Swimmers get no respect!
All athletes know the race has 3 sections when they sign up. Everyone has a weakness. It is unfair to protect on athletes weakness and not another's. Haven't we learned from pro sports (Mr Bonds) a level playing field is all anyone seeks. Changing the rules to help on group over another is unfair.
This is the second time I have been done in by the triathlon world. The mass start of the swim was dropped because the pro's complained that they were getting run over by fast amateurs. They already had a 100 meter head start but I guess that was not enough. Now the pros start 10 minutes before the amateurs.
It is bad enough that the most IM's are wetsuit legal. The whole idea of a wetsuit in the sport is ludicrous. It is like wearing roller blades on the run. But I guess there wasn’t enough money being brought in on Speedo sales that the wetsuit was added to help the industry the bottom line.
I can only hope I swim fast enough on Sunday to make a difference. Every time I try to earn some respect for the swimming world. Slap! down we go again.






2007-08-23 4:38 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
The mass start of the swim was dropped because the pro's complained that they were getting run over by fast amateurs. They already had a 100 meter head start but I guess that was not enough. Now the pros start 10 minutes before the amateurs.


HA! HA!

Wimps... maybe they needed to take that as a hint to learn how to swim faster? Too funny.
2007-08-23 4:43 PM
in reply to: #938323

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

"The whole idea of a wetsuit in the sport is ludicrous."

Isn't your avatar a picture of you...coming out of the water...in a wetsuit?

 

Edit:  I've got to admit, though, that is a pretty cool picture in that there isn't even so much as a ripple in front of you.  Friggin' fish!  :-



Edited by Steve in IL 2007-08-23 5:04 PM
2007-08-23 4:52 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
Just because I got some free time today:

It is bad enough that the most IM's are wetsuit legal. The whole idea of a wetsuit in the sport is ludicrous. It is like wearing roller blades on the run. But I guess there wasn’t enough money being brought in on Speedo sales that the wetsuit was added to help the industry the bottom line.


I hate cold water so I will wear a wetsuit. Does it help me swim faster? Nope. I'm a faster swimmer without a wetsuit. In fact, I dread the thought of racing in a wetsuit. I hate it.

So the idea of the wetsuit being like wearing roller blades on the run...doesn't compute for everyone.



2007-08-23 5:32 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

Am I bummed that there will be no mass swim start? Sure, that was going to be part of the Ironman experience for me. But I'm glad that they found a solution that was not more drastic than that. I guess these are the challenges that we face participating in outdoor activities that can be affected by things like the weather.

If you can't deal with it, I would suggest an activity like laser tag. It's indoors, out of the weather and probably air conditioned.

And just for fun, a pic of the transition area with the offending river in the background:





(imlou_transition_s.jpg)



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2007-08-24 9:05 AM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
My point is that you don't adjust the course to protect the weak. This is an outdoor activity you have to deal with what mother nature throws you.

I don’t buy the well "people could drown on the swim" line. If you don’t think you can swim for 2 hours you should not be out there.

As to the wetsuit not being a boost. We tested in the pool and found for a fast swimmer a wetsuit is 7-9 seconds per 100 m. That adds up fast in a 60 minute race.

Yes that is me a wetsuit leading the pack out of the water at LP. If you cant beat them…join em!
2007-08-24 10:17 AM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
A wetsuit is definitely a boost, which is why I said earlier that if it is allowed, you should always use it, even in things as short as a sprint race.  There is also the lower fatigue levels that a wetsuit allows from the buoyancy.
2007-08-24 1:49 PM
in reply to: #938364

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

KSH - 2007-08-23 4:52 PM Just because I got some free time today:
It is bad enough that the most IM's are wetsuit legal. The whole idea of a wetsuit in the sport is ludicrous. It is like wearing roller blades on the run. But I guess there wasn’t enough money being brought in on Speedo sales that the wetsuit was added to help the industry the bottom line.
I hate cold water so I will wear a wetsuit. Does it help me swim faster? Nope. I'm a faster swimmer without a wetsuit. In fact, I dread the thought of racing in a wetsuit. I hate it. So the idea of the wetsuit being like wearing roller blades on the run...doesn't compute for everyone.

How is it possible that you're slower with a wetsuit?

~B

2007-08-24 1:59 PM
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2007-08-24 2:08 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
If you're a swimmer the great technique, balance and flotation then the extra boost from the wetsuit does nothing for you. If anything, it will heat you up and restrict your motion.

My coach was an Olympic swimmer and he'll only wear a wetsuit if it's absolutely necessary because of the temperature.



Thank you!

I was a competitive swimmer and the wetsuit affects my stroke just enough to enact different shoulder muscles and my stroke isn't the same. Not to mention I feel like I'm being sufficated in it the whole time. But the proof is in the puddin'.

My time from a tri this year WITH a wetsuit:
00:10:38 | 546.81 yards | 1m 56s / 100yards

My time from a tri this year WITHOUT a wetsuit:
00:13:42 | 874.89 yards | 1m 34s / 100yards

See, wetsuits don't help everyone out.

2007-08-24 2:16 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
I can't handle full sleeve wetsuits --- messes with my shoulders.  So I always go with my sleeveless no matter how cold the water is.
2007-08-24 2:19 PM
in reply to: #933812

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
Not to make this a wet suit debate....but what the heck we are all just sitting around 100 degree Louisville waiting to race.

If the wetsuit rubs or chaffs you. You have a poor fitting wetsuit.

If your Olympic coach doesn't wear a wet suit. it is because he is an Olympic swimmer! He does not need the boost to go fast. He can best the field without it.

However in controlled conditions a wet suited swimmer will beat a un-wet suited swimmer of equal ability.

For the record. I hate wetsuits give me a Speedo any day.
2007-08-24 2:37 PM
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2007-08-24 3:37 PM
in reply to: #939514

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

Ummmmm, let's see ....... I had a 1:16 T1 in a sprint taking off a 2 piece Desoto T1 Black Pearl .......... and I am 10 - 15 seconds faster per 100 in my wetsuit over not having it.  It's a no-brainer.

The facts are the facts.  A properly fit wetsuit will make all but the ultra-elite faster, it increases the buoyancy in the water making you less fatigued over the length of the swim, and it keeps your core temp more stable in cooler water not making your body work harder to maintain a constant temp.

Almost all tri coaches I've read things from have said the same thing.  One would be a fool to not use it if given the option unless you are already a world class swimmer.

And if that isn't reason enough than just remember ..... just because you want to be all anti-establishment and not use one because you THINK you are slower in it, everyone else will be using them and will be faster and more fresh getting out of the water.  Bear that in mind .........



2007-08-24 3:55 PM
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2007-08-24 4:11 PM
in reply to: #938114

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

Rogillio - 2007-08-23 2:05 PM  I'm curious though, if you swam for 30 minutes and swam out for 15 and back in 4...where did the other 11 minutes go?

haha

2007-08-24 4:20 PM
in reply to: #939457

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

KSH - 2007-08-24 2:08 PM
If you're a swimmer the great technique, balance and flotation then the extra boost from the wetsuit does nothing for you. If anything, it will heat you up and restrict your motion. My coach was an Olympic swimmer and he'll only wear a wetsuit if it's absolutely necessary because of the temperature.
Thank you! I was a competitive swimmer and the wetsuit affects my stroke just enough to enact different shoulder muscles and my stroke isn't the same. Not to mention I feel like I'm being sufficated in it the whole time. But the proof is in the puddin'. My time from a tri this year WITH a wetsuit: 00:10:38 | 546.81 yards | 1m 56s / 100yards My time from a tri this year WITHOUT a wetsuit: 00:13:42 | 874.89 yards | 1m 34s / 100yards See, wetsuits don't help everyone out.

 something still seems fishy here. losing 22s/100yd BECAUSE of the wetsuit ... seems extreme.  do you have any other measured swim speeds WITHOUT the suit for comparison's sake?

2007-08-24 4:24 PM
in reply to: #939438

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
JeepFleeb - 2007-08-24 12:59 PM

If you're a swimmer the great technique, balance and flotation then the extra boost from the wetsuit does nothing for you.  If anything, it will heat you up and restrict your motion.

I don't buy it. I bet if Michael Phelps practiced swimming in a wetsuit he could go faster with one than without. Maybe he would need to change his technique slightly to account for the increased buoyancy.

Are there ANY professional triathletes who will voluntarily forego the use of a wetsuit? I don't think so.

 



Edited by ScottoNM 2007-08-24 4:34 PM
2007-08-24 4:25 PM
in reply to: #939670

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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

Or a trial that is more controlled.  Because we all know how accurate OWS distances are.

getsome - 2007-08-24 4:20 PM

KSH - 2007-08-24 2:08 PM
If you're a swimmer the great technique, balance and flotation then the extra boost from the wetsuit does nothing for you. If anything, it will heat you up and restrict your motion. My coach was an Olympic swimmer and he'll only wear a wetsuit if it's absolutely necessary because of the temperature.
Thank you! I was a competitive swimmer and the wetsuit affects my stroke just enough to enact different shoulder muscles and my stroke isn't the same. Not to mention I feel like I'm being sufficated in it the whole time. But the proof is in the puddin'. My time from a tri this year WITH a wetsuit: 00:10:38 | 546.81 yards | 1m 56s / 100yards My time from a tri this year WITHOUT a wetsuit: 00:13:42 | 874.89 yards | 1m 34s / 100yards See, wetsuits don't help everyone out.

 something still seems fishy here. losing 22s/100yd BECAUSE of the wetsuit ... seems extreme.  do you have any other measured swim speeds WITHOUT the suit for comparison's sake?



2007-08-24 4:32 PM
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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

KSH - 2007-08-24 1:08 PM
If you're a swimmer the great technique, balance and flotation then the extra boost from the wetsuit does nothing for you. If anything, it will heat you up and restrict your motion. My coach was an Olympic swimmer and he'll only wear a wetsuit if it's absolutely necessary because of the temperature.
Thank you! I was a competitive swimmer and the wetsuit affects my stroke just enough to enact different shoulder muscles and my stroke isn't the same. Not to mention I feel like I'm being sufficated in it the whole time. But the proof is in the puddin'. My time from a tri this year WITH a wetsuit: 00:10:38 | 546.81 yards | 1m 56s / 100yards My time from a tri this year WITHOUT a wetsuit: 00:13:42 | 874.89 yards | 1m 34s / 100yards See, wetsuits don't help everyone out.

Your "proof" is a very selective use of data to back up the argument that you've already made your mind up about.

If you get a high quality wetsuit that fits you properly, and you put it on properly, and practice with it so that you gain the feel of swimming in it, it WILL allow you to swim faster. How many pro triathletes are faster without a wetsuit?

More buoyancy means less of you underwater means less drag means higher velocity for a given level of power, once you learn to sustain the power with a wetsuit on.

2007-08-24 4:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
something still seems fishy here. losing 22s/100yd BECAUSE of the wetsuit ... seems extreme. do you have any other measured swim speeds WITHOUT the suit for comparison's sake?


Well, I only did 1 tri in a wetsuit this year. I can tell you it was my worst swim to date, but somehow I placed 1st in my AG. Looking at my time, you can see that the field was very slow. Typically a 2:00 per 100 would not win an AG.

The other tri I did this year, without a wetsuit, here are the times:

00:31:36 | 1640.4 yards | 1m 56s / 100yards

That's it. My other race got cancelled and the other race I had, the swim got cancelled.

So, again, I was faster WITHOUT a wetsuit. Maybe I'm just an oddity? I'm a one off who isn't faster in a wetsuit?



2007-08-24 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps
Your "proof" is a very selective use of data to back up the argument that you've already made your mind up about.

If you get a high quality wetsuit that fits you properly, and you put it on properly, and practice with it so that you gain the feel of swimming in it, it WILL allow you to swim faster. How many pro triathletes are faster without a wetsuit?

More buoyancy means less of you underwater means less drag means higher velocity for a given level of power, once you learn to sustain the power with a wetsuit on.



Well, sorry... but that's all I got along the lines of proof. I've used the data I have available. Hey, I'm racing in a wetsuit in October, maybe my time will surprise me... right?

Now, the only race I did in a wetsuit was with a rented Blue Seventy Helix as I couldn't find a wetsuit I wanted to buy.

Since that race, I purchased the Zoot Zenith. A top of the line wetsuit. I haven't raced in it yet.

Again, maybe my times will be smoking fast and I'll be in awe of my wetsuit swimming abilities. But as it stands, I hate swimming in one and it doesn't help me very much.
2007-08-24 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Current Ohio river temps

KSH - 2007-08-24 3:34 PM Maybe I'm just an oddity? I'm a one off who isn't faster in a wetsuit?

The physics would argue otherwise. 

If you are not faster in a wetsuit in moderate water temps, you just have not done enough swimming in a  properly fitted high-quality wetsuit.

But, as previously noted, you've already decided that you AREN'T GOING TO BOTHER TO REALLY TRY USING A WETSUIT, so I guess this argument is pointless.



Edited by ScottoNM 2007-08-24 4:39 PM
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