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2004-01-27 6:44 PM

Member
21

Dallas, TX
Subject: Flip Turns
I promised myself that I'd practice my flip turns tonight since the swim for the tri I'm registered for in March will be in a pool and I haven't done flip turns for years. The good news is that the flip turns, even as badly as I was performing them tonight, cut a good 10 seconds off of my 100 time. The bad news is that I got a bad cramp in the arch of my left foot from doing them. :-( What I'm wondering is if any of you have had this same experience. I don't know if this is something that I have to build up to with my arches becoming stronger or if I need to push off differently. Any words of advice?


2004-01-27 8:26 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Central Louisiana
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
this is a stupid question, but I will ask because I have no clue! How do you do a flip turn. I don't need them for a tri, but it would be nice to learn how to do in the pool. Any advice, links, comments or cussin's!
2004-01-27 8:33 PM
in reply to: #5158

, Alabama
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Never really had cramping problems. Just guessing, but did you notice if you forcibly pointed your foot after pushing off the wall? If so, maybe that did it. Stretching is a good idea. Doing a runner's stretch at a wall, add an extra step of rising up on the ball of the foot of the calf you are stretching and that can help stretch the toe flexors. Might help. Might not. Couldn't hurt.

Sharon
2004-01-28 5:09 AM
in reply to: #5173

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns
I have not had this problem while doing flip turns, but I have had problems with my arches my whole life. I would suggest stretching well after you warm up a bit. I would also make sure that you are properly hydrated, as dehydration can cause cramping and it is easy to forget that you need to hydrate while swimming. Also, I would have someone knowledeable watch you execute a few turns. Maybe there is something that you can do differently that may help alleviate the problem.

Edited by Hermom 2004-01-28 5:19 AM
2004-01-28 5:12 AM
in reply to: #5173

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Michael - 2004-01-27 8:26 PM

this is a stupid question, but I will ask because I have no clue! How do you do a flip turn. I don't need them for a tri, but it would be nice to learn how to do in the pool. Any advice, links, comments or cussin's!


I can help with this. I have taught hundreds of people, from 3 years old on up to PADI Dive Masters, all using the same basic approach. First, make sure that you are pretty comfortable doing somersaults in the water. Next, stand with your arms extended and fingertips just barely touching the wall and practice somersaulting close to the wall. When you are comfortable with that, move back to the flags and swim to the wall and somersault just before your fingertips touch the wall, just somersault as in the previous step. When confortable with swimming in and somersaulting, try swimming in, flipping and placing your feet on the wall as you come to a face up position. When you've got the foot thing down, try to swim in, flip, place feet and push off On YOUR BACK in a streamline position. When you can execute the pushoff and streamline on your back, you can add the turn over to your stomach and swimming. By far the easiset way to learn the flipturn is to break it down into steps, practice each step until comfortable, then move on to the next step. Good luck, let me know how it goes!
2004-01-28 5:21 AM
in reply to: #5198

Veteran
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Rutland Ohio (South Eastern Ohio)
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Michael thanks for asking that question. I have been wondering this every since this fall when it was too cold to swim outside. I like you don't need them for tri, but it will be nice to not feel so dorky swimming down and touching the wall with my hand while doing laps.

Hermom thanks for explaining it in steps. I think I can practice and eventually get it if I follow your instructions.


2004-01-28 6:15 AM
in reply to: #5158

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Expert
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Rockledge, Fl
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Sorry to barge in on your question, but all the local tris are either ocean or lake swims. So far, I don't even push off hard off the wall much less flip turns thinking that want to make swim more like actual tri than pool swims. Is this reasonable?
2004-01-28 6:40 AM
in reply to: #5212

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Rutland Ohio (South Eastern Ohio)
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Cam,

I agree that not even touching the side of the pool would most replicate the tri races that I run. I would swim the perimeter of the pool if I weren't confined to a few lap lanes. I still think that learning to do flip turns would be pretty cool even if I never use them in a tri.
2004-01-28 7:01 AM
in reply to: #5158

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25
SW Michigan
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

While I don't know how to do flip turns, I do have weak arches that sometimes cramp painfully when I'm swimming free-style. I have noticed over the last 6 months or so that I don't have as much problem with it when I'm taking vitamins. When I start forgetting them my foot starts cramping and reminds me to take them.

Amy
2004-01-28 8:24 AM
in reply to: #5158

New user
22

Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Any of you guys that do flip turns ever get 2 close o the wall and then smack your heels on top? OUCH!!!! I swam in high scholl and have done this many times!!! It dont feel to good!
2004-01-28 4:42 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Northern Va/Metro D.C.
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
the biggest mistake swimmers who are learning a flip turn make is over compensation on the flip. essentially, when swimming into the wall, the flipturn begins within the abs...as if a coil ready to spring out...focusing on the abs prevents the body, and the butt, from sinking.


2004-01-28 6:05 PM
in reply to: #5158

Member
21

Dallas, TX
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Thanks everyone for the advice. I do stretches for my arms before swimming, but I never thought to do them for my feet. I'll need to add that to my routine. And I probably should be taking a vitamin anyway. I usually don't get any cramps so this was a new/weird experience for me.
2004-01-28 7:02 PM
in reply to: #5234

, Alabama
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Neokrotmo, I've definitely been there, in high school too. Once in a race I hit so hard I could actually hear it, even underwater! People sort of looked at me funny when I got out of the pool. Wonder why?

Sharon
2004-01-29 6:43 AM
in reply to: #5158

Member
10

Harrisburg, PA
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

What a great question! I was actually wondering about the whole "flip turn" deal last night during my swimming. However, because i am a new swimmer, i have already asked the poor people around me more questions then I think they ever wanted to answer.

So, it was great to get a step by step instruction guide. Thanks!! The questions one raised concerning the need for using flip turns in relation to a tri... i thought was a good question.

Best of Luck to all who are working on their flip turns.  - KB

2004-01-31 9:45 AM
in reply to: #5158

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Regular
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Sugar Hill, GA
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
Regarding the original question about foot cramps, yes, I also get arch and toe cramps from doing flip turns when pushing off the wall really hard. It generally happens when I push off with one foot harder than the other foot. I’ve tried potassium pills, sports drinks beforehand (hydration), but found that stretching and massaging the foot when not in the pool help reduce the frequency. Just a couple of days ago I got a foot cramp coming off of a hard push off.

I was never a member of a swim team or club until last summer when I finally joined a masters group so years ago I taught myself how to do a flip turn by observing the other swimmers. Basically find a pool where you can stand in waist deep water about 10 feet or more from the wall. Push off with your legs toward the wall with your arms in front of you. Sweep your arms back to your side. This will give you some added momentum. Once you are about 2 to 3 feet from the wall turn your palms down and sweep them forward under you, while at the same time bending at the waist and pulling your legs into a tuck. Let your legs rotate over your head and plant your feet on the wall. As you do the plant you'll notice that you tended to fall to one side. This is good because you are already half rotated back to the proper face down position. Push off the wall with your arms outstretched and streamlined in front of you and finish the rotation to the face down position. Do this over and over and you will get comfortable with the motion. The great thing about this simple flip turn drill is that it allows you to concentrate on just the flip turn and not worry about your stroke or breathing and you can do it while staying rested.

To use it while swimming I start looking at my stroke and the distance to the wall about 2 to 3 full strokes out. This allows me to time the turn correctly. I like to finish a pool length with a full left arm pull just before the wall at the turning line T marker, I then bring my right arm forward and just pull it back easily to keep my momentum and when both arms are fully back I’m ready for the under sweep to start the turn.

JT
2006-08-01 8:35 PM
in reply to: #5198

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Master
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Granvile, Ohio
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

I can help with this. I have taught hundreds of people, from 3 years old on up to PADI Dive Masters, all using the same basic approach. First, make sure that you are pretty comfortable doing somersaults in the water. Next, stand with your arms extended and fingertips just barely touching the wall and practice somersaulting close to the wall. When you are comfortable with that, move back to the flags and swim to the wall and somersault just before your fingertips touch the wall, just somersault as in the previous step. When confortable with swimming in and somersaulting, try swimming in, flipping and placing your feet on the wall as you come to a face up position. When you've got the foot thing down, try to swim in, flip, place feet and push off On YOUR BACK in a streamline position. When you can execute the pushoff and streamline on your back, you can add the turn over to your stomach and swimming. By far the easiset way to learn the flipturn is to break it down into steps, practice each step until comfortable, then move on to the next step. Good luck, let me know how it goes!

I did a search on learning flip turns and found this thread. Even though the thread is a couple of years old, the lessons are still valid.  I printed out the above advice, took it to the pool with me and NOW I CAN DO FLIP TURNS!  Thanks Hermom!



2006-08-01 9:41 PM
in reply to: #5234

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns

neokrotmo - 2004-01-28 7:24 AM Any of you guys that do flip turns ever get 2 close o the wall and then smack your heels on top? OUCH!!!! I swam in high scholl and have done this many times!!! It dont feel to good!

I've done this a few times.  The other thing is when I miss-gauge the distance and turn too early.  Then my push off hits nothing but water.  That has to be one of the weirdest feelings ever... to suddenly lose all momentum and just bob there in the water.

2006-08-01 9:59 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns

I get those every once and a while.  Don't push off hard.  I start my flip turn about half an arm stroke when I pass over the "T" in the swimming pool.  You don't want to flip too late.  That really hurts.

When I stretch, I sit with both of my soles touching as close to my body as possible and lean forward.  It works for me. 

2006-08-01 10:11 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns
2006-08-01 10:35 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Subject: RE: Flip Turns

I have over the years learned to not push too hard off, and to not point my toe, otherwise I will get a calf cramp.  Stretching would probably be a good idea but I never take the time.

Flip turns may not be used in OWS but it seems like a good idea to get used to holding your breath a little bit longer while doing them.  Also, just like you probably dont wear a speedo (brief kind) because you look like a dork, doing flip turns in a pool is also pretty cool.  Plus you can just keep cranking and not lose momenteum.

I'm not going to try to describe a flip turn, others have above, but I would add that you want to try to stay on top of the water, I do an extra kick or two to stay up.  I also use my arms a bit by pushing  the opposite direction to help in turn over, I think.  I have been doing them for so long I cant think of how I actually do it.

2006-08-04 1:46 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Littleton, CO
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

I just wanted to let you all know that you jinxed me. I've been doing flipturns for over 15 years.  I've swam competitively for 10 of those years and I have NEVER hit my ankles, not even once, until yesterday

I came in too close, wasn't paying attention, and wacked both of my ankle bones on the top of the gutter!!!  And it's all your fault for putting the idea into my little brain!

Anyways...onto another flipturn tip. I noticed yesterday that I use my quads to push from the wall, rather than my calves and feet. If you come in at the right distance, your legs should be in the squat position, and your body sideways as you push off. Use the power in your quads/core to push off, rather than your feet. Your feet really have little to do with it at all.  Also, make sure your arms are under your torso, hands flat, and scooping the water towards your body as you turn, this rotates your body around faster. 



2006-08-04 2:43 PM
in reply to: #5198

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Seattle
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

Hermom - 2004-01-28 2:12 AM  I can help with this. I have taught hundreds of people, from 3 years old on up to PADI Dive Masters, all using the same basic approach. First, make sure that you are pretty comfortable doing somersaults in the water. Next, stand with your arms extended and fingertips just barely touching the wall and practice somersaulting close to the wall. When you are comfortable with that, move back to the flags and swim to the wall and somersault just before your fingertips touch the wall, just somersault as in the previous step. When confortable with swimming in and somersaulting, try swimming in, flipping and placing your feet on the wall as you come to a face up position. When you've got the foot thing down, try to swim in, flip, place feet and push off On YOUR BACK in a streamline position. When you can execute the pushoff and streamline on your back, you can add the turn over to your stomach and swimming. By far the easiset way to learn the flipturn is to break it down into steps, practice each step until comfortable, then move on to the next step. Good luck, let me know how it goes!

 thank you thank you thank you for this concise explanation.  I attempted my first flip turn last night.  It was not pretty   I really should have checked the lap swimmer behind me, because my aim was not great and I almost went headlong straight into her path.  I was going to dig around today for a flip turn thread and VoiLa... here it is. 

2006-08-04 2:47 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Northern VA
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

Back to the OP, you mentioned that you wanted to do flip-turns for a pool triathlon.

You might want to check the rules and see if flip-turns are allowed.  The sprint I'm doing next week does NOT allow them and says you will be disqualified.   

 

2006-08-04 3:43 PM
in reply to: #502615

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Master
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Granvile, Ohio
Subject: RE: Flip Turns

thank you thank you thank you for this concise explanation.  I attempted my first flip turn last night.  It was not pretty   I really should have checked the lap swimmer behind me, because my aim was not great and I almost went headlong straight into her path.  I was going to dig around today for a flip turn thread and VoiLa... here it is. 

Isn't it just so cool the way this works?!?!  I was trying to do the whole movement at once, rather than breaking it down step by step.  What a huge difference!  I also tried without success and after following these instructions, and an hour and a half of practice, I can do flip turns! They aren't pretty, but now that I know how to do them, I can make them better!



Edited by tnickerson 2006-08-04 3:44 PM
2006-08-04 3:48 PM
in reply to: #5158

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Master
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Rochester, NY
Subject: RE: Flip Turns
I may have to give those instructions a try. It definitely sucks giving up 2 seconds per side to everyone else in the pool....
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