Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars

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2009-08-06 9:00 AM

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Subject: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
Over the summer, I have participated in two or three pretty large benefit rides.  There were approximately 400-500 riders in the smallest and I would guess around 800 or more in the largest.  In both cases, the organizers started everyone at the same time.  These weren't races, but some of the serious cyclists around here treat them that way with several of the local bike shops engaging in a little casual competition.  As you can imagine, the entire lane of the two lane road is filled with one long continuous line of cyclists for the first 6-8 miles until everyone settles into heir pace and the group starts spreading out.  During this time, a car approaching from behind doesn't have any option for passing and they are pretty much stuck, maybe for miles.

Part of me says, 'Hey, we are out here doing a group ride early on a Saturday morning only a few weekends a year and they should just deal with it.'  Another part of me says this can't be enhancing the cooperation and sharing of the road we expect from car drivers.  But the real question I have pertains to later in the ride after everyone has found a group riding a pace they are comfortable with.  Usually, these groups are made up of around 30-40 riders in a variably spaced line with people in single file and side by side stretched out over 50-100 yards.  On all of the rides I participated in, there were several incidents where drivers got impatient behind these groups and passed everyone in the opposing traffic lane on winding, hilly country roads that provided no visibility for oncoming traffic.  Usually, they were going 45-50 miles per hour and it scared the heck out of me to be in the group being passed with this car or truck zipping by having no idea if someone was going to appear at the top of the hill or just around the curve.  Many of these roads provide almost no passing opportunities, so I sympathize with a driver to a point.  But geez, if there was a head on collision, we would probably end up with a half dozen dead or seriously injured cyclists in addition to whatever happened to the drivers and passengers.

With 30-40 cyclists in a group, the custom around here seems to be that it is OK to ride side by side and essentially take up the entire lane.  Not sure how I feel about that, but it is hard to deny the sense of empowerment that seems to prevail in a group and getting a gang that large to ride single file just seems difficult with some people climbing faster, some coasting downhill faster, switching out leaders, and some just wanting to chat.  Is this the custom in other parts of the country?  Do you experience unsafe passing by impatient drivers? 

Greg

Edited by trinewby 2009-08-06 9:01 AM

2009-08-06 9:08 AM
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2009-08-06 9:10 AM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
I hate to say that it's probably too hard to overcome "group think".

I know when I've done regular group rides we try not to ride more than two abreast--it's planned and discussed before hand.  But those charity rides get SO huge that the groups can probably get unmanageable and are often not "organized".  As in...the people in the group don't know each other and didn't plan to ride together...they just ended up together.  No chance to talk over staying two abreast, etc.

Personally I think the cars should suck it up since it is only a once in awhile thing.  But I know that probably isn't the right answer.  Maybe all the charity type rides I've done have just been on very low traffic roads and it wasn't an issue.  Though when I did the Lance Armstrong Ride for the Roses the organizers specifically stated that it was TX law to ride no more than two abreast and the cops could ticket you if they wanted to...and all the announcement got was a bunch of sniggers from the crowd.

Yeah, it gives cycling a bad name, but not sure if you can do anything about it except to NOT ride in the groups like that...
2009-08-06 9:11 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
It's not custom you should be concerned about, but law. In this state, the cyclists are to treated like a motorist, but must ride "as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable" and "shall not ride more than two abreast." Other vehicles should follow the same laws when passing bikes as they do wen passing other vehicles (no passing on turns, near hills or intersections, and where precluded by the solid yellow line.)

Of course a law requiring we be treated as a motor vehicle will not protect us from other drivers who are unaware, uncaring, or flat out dangerous.
2009-08-06 9:12 AM
in reply to: #2331357

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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
I have been in this scenario many times. In fact, when I do my weekly cycling club ride, this happens on occasion. Of course, we don't ride on hilly roads with blind corners.

I personally hate when we block traffic. I think it's rude. We are holding cars up and they want to go around.

BUT the facts are this... when there is a group of 30 of us... we aren't going to be able to squeeze easily into a single file line. So it is what it is. Now, we do make the effort but it doesn't always work out.

So it's a stale mate. Yes it's wrong, but it's not very realistic that a huge group of cyclists will ride single file.

2009-08-06 9:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
wgraves7582 - 2009-08-06 9:08 AM

I cannot believe they have the roads open with that many people.  In the rides of that size I do around here they are closed to cars and police monitored.

I believe most people think that since they are for charity that they are a little more patient.

Now on a regular group ride - taking control of the road is going to lead to problems and we try and ride single file on most roads.  If should conditions allow we will double up but still give cars room to pass.



Gosh, the roads aren't even closed during an Ironman.

At Ironman Kentucky we had to share a two-lane road with no shoulder with cars.



2009-08-06 9:26 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
wgraves7582 - 2009-08-06 10:08 AM

I cannot believe they have the roads open with that many people.  In the rides of that size I do around here they are closed to cars and police monitored.

I believe most people think that since they are for charity that they are a little more patient.

Now on a regular group ride - taking control of the road is going to lead to problems and we try and ride single file on most roads.  If should conditions allow we will double up but still give cars room to pass.



No chance of closing the roads.  These rides typically have several distances you can pick from with the shortest being a 10-mile fun ride and 40, 65, & 100 mile options.  If they closed that many miles of roads, we really would have a lot of ticked off drivers!

You brought up another good point about leaving room for cars to pass.  When riding solo, I generally stay within about two feet of the white side stripe, sometimes less if the road condition is good.  However, I have noticed a lot of drivers will pass more closely as opposed to when riding about 3' from the stripe.  Most drivers will tend to pass you even though there is oncoming traffic because they can get by since you are way over.  A lot of fellow cyclists say you should not encourage passing by hugging the side stripe.  Instead, you should be far enough into the lane that the car MUST wait until there is no oncoming traffic.  What opinions are there about that?
2009-08-06 9:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
trinewby - 2009-08-06 9:26 AM

wgraves7582 - 2009-08-06 10:08 AM

I cannot believe they have the roads open with that many people.  In the rides of that size I do around here they are closed to cars and police monitored.

I believe most people think that since they are for charity that they are a little more patient.

Now on a regular group ride - taking control of the road is going to lead to problems and we try and ride single file on most roads.  If should conditions allow we will double up but still give cars room to pass.



No chance of closing the roads.  These rides typically have several distances you can pick from with the shortest being a 10-mile fun ride and 40, 65, & 100 mile options.  If they closed that many miles of roads, we really would have a lot of ticked off drivers!

You brought up another good point about leaving room for cars to pass.  When riding solo, I generally stay within about two feet of the white side stripe, sometimes less if the road condition is good.  However, I have noticed a lot of drivers will pass more closely as opposed to when riding about 3' from the stripe.  Most drivers will tend to pass you even though there is oncoming traffic because they can get by since you are way over.  A lot of fellow cyclists say you should not encourage passing by hugging the side stripe.  Instead, you should be far enough into the lane that the car MUST wait until there is no oncoming traffic.  What opinions are there about that?


If you are on a two-lane road with traffic going oppposite directions you need to ride to the right to allow the car to pass on your left.

If you are on a road with multiple lanes going the same direction, you take your lane. If you ride in the gutter, the car will think that it's OK to share the lane with you... when they could have easily passed in a full lane next to you.

2009-08-06 9:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
KSH - 2009-08-06 10:34 AM  If you are on a two-lane road with traffic going oppposite directions you need to ride to the right to allow the car to pass on your left. If you are on a road with multiple lanes going the same direction, you take your lane. If you ride in the gutter, the car will think that it's OK to share the lane with you... when they could have easily passed in a full lane next to you.


x2
2009-08-06 9:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
^^^^^ What they said.

I will add that I think a lot of these decisions are situational.  How wide is the road?  How much traffic is there?  Is this a car that has clearly slowed down, knows you're there, and is waiting for a reasonable opportunity to pass, or a car that just sped up behind you and is likely to try to thread a needle to get by you?  Is there a wide shoulder that is clear for the next while that you can reasonably and safely enter to allow the car to pass, and if so will you reasonably and safely be able to re-enter the road?  There are a million variables.  IMO, there are very few hard and fast rules apart from the very general ones like 'safety first; follow the law; be polite'.

But as I said, I agree with the general principle of the last two posters -- don't encourage cars to pass too closely.  Riding in the gutter is almost never a good idea.  If the road is four-lanes, be more aggressive about 'demanding' that cars go around in the passing lane.
2009-08-06 9:48 AM
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2009-08-06 9:50 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
Thats a ton of bikes to go off at once with-out some traffic control.







Edited by JC5066 2009-08-06 9:51 AM
2009-08-06 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
wgraves7582 - 2009-08-06 9:48 AM

KSH - 2009-08-06 10:16 AM
wgraves7582 - 2009-08-06 9:08 AM

I cannot believe they have the roads open with that many people.  In the rides of that size I do around here they are closed to cars and police monitored.

I believe most people think that since they are for charity that they are a little more patient.

Now on a regular group ride - taking control of the road is going to lead to problems and we try and ride single file on most roads.  If should conditions allow we will double up but still give cars room to pass.

Gosh, the roads aren't even closed during an Ironman. At Ironman Kentucky we had to share a two-lane road with no shoulder with cars.

Wow - I would have never figured on that.  These are cancer charity rides and they are out in the boonies so maybe that makes it easier for the traffic control - not through a city or anything like that.



It varies. The IM70.3 in New Orleans had most if not all of their routes closed to traffic, including a portion of an interstate highway. I'm still marveling at that logistical feat pulled off by the RD.
2009-08-06 10:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars
trinewby - 2009-08-06 9:26 AM


You brought up another good point about leaving room for cars to pass.  When riding solo, I generally stay within about two feet of the white side stripe, sometimes less if the road condition is good.  However, I have noticed a lot of drivers will pass more closely as opposed to when riding about 3' from the stripe.  Most drivers will tend to pass you even though there is oncoming traffic because they can get by since you are way over.  A lot of fellow cyclists say you should not encourage passing by hugging the side stripe.  Instead, you should be far enough into the lane that the car MUST wait until there is no oncoming traffic.  What opinions are there about that?


As Bear notes above, the law generally states you need to be 'as far to the right as practical'. I disagree with the "lot of fellow cyclists" opinion to discourage passing by being way left of the white stripe, although you may be exercising your "right" by being there. To me its an issue of being as accomodating as possible to ALL rightful users of the road. IMO one is more likely to encounter boorish (potentially dangerous) behavior when one is viewed as obstructing traffic. Based solely on my experience, generally riding within a foot or so of the white line (and often to the right thereof) has resulted in zero biker/car incidents (there, I just jinxed myself).

To some of the other comments/questions, I tend to avoid large group riding because of the inability (unwillingness) of the group to quickly line-up single file when necessary. As noted in above posts, this 'hogging the road' is likely to cause harm to the delicate biker-to-car relationship. 

Edited by Force 2009-08-06 10:02 AM
2009-08-06 10:19 AM
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2009-08-06 11:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Questions About Sharing the Road with Cars

Around here, the law is single file and it is illegal to ride 2 abreast. Sometimes it is more practical though. If I'm riding with a group of more than 30 people (it happens), it seems more practical to have a double paceline 15-30 riders long rather than a single paceline 30-60 riders long.



Edited by jeng 2009-08-06 11:27 AM

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