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Swim Test
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 2009-07-20 12:09 PM |
Champion  6962      Atlanta, Ga |  Subject: Swim TestSo I had a long trip this weekend which led to some random musing about triathlon and a bunch of 'what if' scenario's. It's not perfect, but it allows for people to use any stroke they want and it shows at least a minimum of swimming ability. And people couldn't complain that it would fatigue them because they could do it the day before or well before the start of the race. Even as part of their warm up. Thoughts? |
| 2009-07-20 12:21 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Subject: RE: Swim Test Every year we have a 2 mile pier to pier swim (which I am missing this year  ). If you have never done the swim before, you are required to show up on one of three different weekends and take a swim test. Essentially a 400 yard open water swim through the surf under the watchful eye of the lifeguard. A friend did it last weekend and the "flunked" four people in the group before her.If you swam the previous year, you don't have to check out. Now, if you haven't swam in a year, that doesn't help much, but at least they try to weed out those clearly in over their heads. This is for a 2 mile swim in the ocean. Long distance, easy access to the site, etc. The first tri I ever dd required a "signoff' by a lifeguard or masters instructor that the distance (1/2 mile) could be covered. Although it wasn't heavily policed. I am torn. Is this solving the problem of the recent deaths? Are people dying because they can't swim or are there underlying issues? The guy that died at IMFL had done a 70.3. So, presumably he could swim. For a typical (i.e. 400 yd) sprint swim, what distance is sufficient to show they can complete, and under what conditions? I'd say it would have to be the entire distance under expected similar conditions as race day. You say 100 yards. I question whether that is enough. Re wetsuits, I think it should be whatever is allowed on race day. We've got some early season tris where water is int he low 60s. A sking for trouble sending people out without wetsuits in those temps. Obviously has to be regionally related I have always been anti - requirements for tris, but if it would help people be more prepared, I could get behind something like this. But it would have to make some kind of sense (i.e., logically result in a smaller number of injuires) |
| 2009-07-20 12:22 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: Swim Test I think a lot more thought would need to go into it... if it is even tractable... - would there only be this requirement if the water temp the day before the race was... what? 75? 76? etc. - what distance race does this apply to? If you are doing an HIM, what does swimming 100m prove? Not much, probably. - would everyone have to do this? for example, the person who won the swim last year? everyone who has never done a triathlon before? how do you know who has done a triathlon before? what about swimmers doing their first triathlon? - How many people would be doing the test at once? You'd need more than 2 people from the race staff, especially if you had multiple swimmers "testing." Which you would have to, otherwise, you have lines of irritated people waiting to take their swim test, which they are probably resentful they have to take in the first place. - what if someone panics during the test, but finishes? certainly they might panic during the race, which is more intense than the test I dunno. I'm not sure what problem this is solving, really, and it also seems like a logistical nightmare, especially if it is done the morning of the race. Edited by newleaf 2009-07-20 12:22 PM |
| 2009-07-20 12:29 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
Extreme Veteran 597 Fairfax | Subject: RE: Swim Test I think it's a great idea in theory, but a logistical nightmare. This may work for smaller races, but trying to get 2000+ in for a 100m trial swim would just add to the chaos that already ensues. I personally think there should be some test required for first-timers. When you sign up for the race, have a check-box that asks if this is your first open water swim. This is all based on the honor system, but state that you will be required to swim 100m trial the day before or the day of to ensure that you have the athletic ability to make the distance without a wetsuit. If the person cannot make the distance, have a duathlon option that they will be required to switch to. I think this would eliminate a lot of the liability stuff for the race director and hold people accountable for their abilities. |
| 2009-07-20 12:40 PM in reply to: #2296267 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Swim Test newleaf - 2009-07-20 1:22 PM I think a lot more thought would need to go into it... if it is even tractable... - would there only be this requirement if the water temp the day before the race was... what? 75? 76? etc. - what distance race does this apply to? If you are doing an HIM, what does swimming 100m prove? Not much, probably. - would everyone have to do this? for example, the person who won the swim last year? everyone who has never done a triathlon before? how do you know who has done a triathlon before? what about swimmers doing their first triathlon? - How many people would be doing the test at once? You'd need more than 2 people from the race staff, especially if you had multiple swimmers "testing." Which you would have to, otherwise, you have lines of irritated people waiting to take their swim test, which they are probably resentful they have to take in the first place. - what if someone panics during the test, but finishes? certainly they might panic during the race, which is more intense than the test I dunno. I'm not sure what problem this is solving, really, and it also seems like a logistical nightmare, especially if it is done the morning of the race. I didn't take into account the 60 degree water races...so for the moment, let's take those out for arguments sake. 1) wouldn't matter if the race was going to be wetsuit legal or not. That's the point. People are relying on their wetsuit for safety. 2) It would apply to all race distances. This isn't a can you finish the swim test, it's a can you swim test. Too many people freak out within the first couple of 100 meters of a race and are grabbing onto a boat for dear life. That's the issue we focused on. 3) Even if Phelps shows up, he has to swim the 'test'. So yes. Everyone has to do it. Makes for easier tracking. 4) It wouldn't be any different than on race day when a lifeguard has to watch masses of people. and the reality would most likely be a steady stream just like at registration. Everyone doesn't show up at registration at the same time. - people complain that they have to attend a pre-race briefing. It's the nature of the beast. If you know there is a test, get there early. 5) As long as they make it unaided, they are beyond the 'minimum' requirements. If it takes them 10 times to get it done, more power to them. But they get to start at the beginning each time. It's just an idea. A 100m swim is easy and short enough that, I believe, if you have a problem with will shine a big beacon on the person's swimming ability. That is the situation that this woudl address. |
| 2009-07-20 12:45 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Subject: RE: Swim Test Re reading it, race staff isn't enough. Obviously, you will need lifeguards (and insurance will tell you how many lifeguards per swimemrs you are going to use) And lifeguards cost money. Not saying it's a barrier to doing it, but it will increase the signup costs for participants |
| 2009-07-20 12:51 PM in reply to: #2296342 |
Champion 6962 Atlanta, Ga | Subject: RE: Swim Test ChrisM - 2009-07-20 1:45 PM Re reading it, race staff isn't enough. Obviously, you will need lifeguards (and insurance will tell you how many lifeguards per swimemrs you are going to use) And lifeguards cost money. Not saying it's a barrier to doing it, but it will increase the signup costs for participants True! But it might be offset by the liability insurance decrease (assuming they give you a break...which I doubt). |
 2009-07-20 12:54 PM in reply to: #2296361 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-07-20 12:56 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Champion 7558 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: Swim Test Interesting thought. With/without the wetsuit? Without helps identify those who count on the extra bouyancy, but again, what if the water temp is 63F? Conversely, there will be a few who are swimming in a wetsuit for the first time on race day and freak because it's tighter and more constricting than not wearing a wetsuit. Edited to add: The Boy Scouts require everyone who wants to swim or do anything water related to pass a swim test every year. The test: Jump in water over your head, level off and swim 75 yards using any recognized stroke then swim 25 yards using elementary backstroke and float on your back for a minute. Jumping in over your head tests confidence in the water. The 100-yards tests endurance (at least enough to get to safety most of the time), and floating on your back as a backup if you find yourself tired in the water. This is everyone, so even though I'm certified as a BSA lifeguard, I still have to pass the swim test annually. Edited by McFuzz 2009-07-20 1:00 PM |
| 2009-07-20 12:57 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: Swim Test Possible solution.... If you're an annual USAT member, you're required to post a race result that confirms you can swim/raced. If its your first race but you're a new memeber, you can take the field test prior to your race at packet pickup etc. Single day liscense you automatically take the field test... I like the idea of increasing safety on the course and this would only help. |
| 2009-07-20 1:00 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Swim Test Doesn't the Red Cross or the YMCA have some sort of standard swim proficiency test? I recall my kids having to take a test every year for summer camp so that they could swim in the deep end of the pool, or swim out to the diving platform at the lake. Maybe the USAT could develop some sort of annual swim certification that could be verified independently. I'd hate to have to hassle with a swim test before every race. |
| 2009-07-20 1:11 PM in reply to: #2296324 |
| Expert 1296 | Subject: RE: Swim Test This is a great topic and should produce some interesting points and debate. Personally, I think as more swimming accidents happen in the months, years to come you will see USAT and other race organizations stepping up to make the race's as safe as possible. I am blown away how many people can't actually swim and think they can show up to an event and "rely" on the wetsuit to "save" them or help them get through the swim. Garbage! I agree that some sort of testing has to be done at some point in time. Quite possibly the governing bodies should adopt a format that is both educational as well as certifiable. What I propose at a high level is the following: Offseaon: Sept - April: Each Region offers swim clinics as well as swim Certifications. Maybe once a month based on number athletes in a region, etc... Race Season (May-August): Bi-Weekly Swim Clinics as well as Certifications in the same format. The clinic are great for people looking for OWS instruction, possibly getting connected with local masters swimming teams as well as Tri Coaches, etc... You sign up based on what you need. If you only need to certify then you are in an out in under 30 mins. They could do certification every few years or something. I think every year might be overkill. For the most part all they are tying to do is establish that you can swim, safe in the water and are capable of handling that poriton of the event. Testing would consist of possibly a 500 yrd/meter swim with no time limit as well as 5 minutes of stationary treading water. In my opinion this is a win for everyone across the board. Coaches, race directors, athletes, etc... Each of the groups has something to gain. |
| 2009-07-20 1:47 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Master 1728 portland, or | Subject: RE: Swim Test Frankly, I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I don't think there's an issue with people not knowing how to swim. As someone who runs a business that rents wetsuits, I can tell you that the people who are renting suits to aid their swimming aren't looking at the wetsuit as a life preserver. They just want something that's going to offset their poor form. I would bet that 99+% of the people who are seeking assistance in the first 200 meters of the swim portion of a triathlon can swim the race distance. They're just not accustomed to the combination of race day anxiety, a crowd of people swimming around (over) them, and the water temperature. This combination causes them to hyperventilate and panic. As Penn State pointed out, the unfortunate deaths that occur during the swim portion are most often attributed to an underlying health issue. Usually an undetected cardiac condition. When we rent wetsuits to novices we encourage them to get in some open water swim practice prior to race day; be sure to get a good swim warm-up in before the race starts to get a sense of what the cold water is going to feel like on their face; and to wait 10 seconds after their wave starts to begin swimming. scott |
| 2009-07-20 1:50 PM in reply to: #2296381 |
| Member 87 Central NJ | Subject: RE: Swim Test mrbbrad - 2009-07-20 2:00 PM Doesn't the Red Cross or the YMCA have some sort of standard swim proficiency test? I recall my kids having to take a test every year for summer camp so that they could swim in the deep end of the pool, or swim out to the diving platform at the lake. Maybe the USAT could develop some sort of annual swim certification that could be verified independently. I'd hate to have to hassle with a swim test before every race. x2 This makes the most sense have a recognized test that can be signed off on by a certified Lifeguard either annually or semi-annually depending on wether you race or not the year before. The boy scout idea is nice but every year is a bit much, and I"ll bet someone will try to make a profit on it. |
| 2009-07-20 2:09 PM in reply to: #2296530 |
| New user 32 | Subject: RE: Swim Test +1 yaqui - 2009-07-20 1:47 PM Frankly, I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I don't think there's an issue with people not knowing how to swim. As someone who runs a business that rents wetsuits, I can tell you that the people who are renting suits to aid their swimming aren't looking at the wetsuit as a life preserver. They just want something that's going to offset their poor form. I would bet that 99+% of the people who are seeking assistance in the first 200 meters of the swim portion of a triathlon can swim the race distance. They're just not accustomed to the combination of race day anxiety, a crowd of people swimming around (over) them, and the water temperature. This combination causes them to hyperventilate and panic. As Penn State pointed out, the unfortunate deaths that occur during the swim portion are most often attributed to an underlying health issue. Usually an undetected cardiac condition. When we rent wetsuits to novices we encourage them to get in some open water swim practice prior to race day; be sure to get a good swim warm-up in before the race starts to get a sense of what the cold water is going to feel like on their face; and to wait 10 seconds after their wave starts to begin swimming. scott |
| 2009-07-20 2:32 PM in reply to: #2296226 |
| Member 103 | Subject: RE: Swim Test Insteresting idea. I am new to tri's this year. I have done 1 and have 2 more scheduled this summer. I do 1-1.5 miles in the pool 2-3 times a week w/o stopping and am told I have good form....although not fast (2min/100yrds) OWS brought on some unexpected anxiety. I had to get a wetsuit for my 1st tri because the water temp was 54 degrees. I was amazed by the added confidence it gave me...it almost made me feel like I was cheating. I felt protected from the weeds that grossed me out and the added bouancy was a plus. I do worry that I am going to lose some swim ability and plan to practice more in OW w/o it. I know I could pass the 100yd test no problem as I trained and was originally prepared to do my 1st (only 1/4 mile swim) w/o a wetsuit. Do you think though that many people rely on it to compesate for lack of swim ability? |
| 2009-07-20 3:58 PM in reply to: #2296373 |
| Extreme Veteran 417 Buford GA | Subject: RE: Swim Test McFuzz - 2009-07-20 1:56 PM Edited to add: The Boy Scouts require everyone who wants to swim or do anything water related to pass a swim test every year. The test: Jump in water over your head, level off and swim 75 yards using any recognized stroke then swim 25 yards using elementary backstroke and float on your back for a minute. Jumping in over your head tests confidence in the water. The 100-yards tests endurance (at least enough to get to safety most of the time), and floating on your back as a backup if you find yourself tired in the water. This is everyone, so even though I'm certified as a BSA lifeguard, I still have to pass the swim test annually. That test is exactly what I thought of when I clicked on this thread and actually wondered in my head about as I read some posts related to relying on the wetsuit for bouyency and being concerned with finishing distance X without one. Before I got to my boyscout camp they didn't even think to keep track of times for the mile swim.. That changed when I was there and was literally doing it in half the time of anyone else (except my brother when he did it a few times). When we did the annual relay same thing we cleaned up on that section. Everyone at the camp knew us to the point that they tried to get my brother and I banned from the relay.. no one complained about the competitive shooters, archers and track runners though go figure.. Still every year we had to take the swim test, usually they didn't make us do the float at the end and laughed when we sat at the bottom for 30+ seconds after jumping in  I think for safety its a decent idea to have some sort of proof of proficiency I haven't done my first tri yet so I really don't know the logistics of doing it other then my days at boy scout camp which I don't see working for a race. If I showed up at my first tri and they said I had to swim 100m or something to prove I could swim well enough I'd jump right in. |
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