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IM Refund - a business case
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 2009-06-23 10:24 AM |
Champion  10157    Alabama |  Subject: IM Refund - a business caseI got to thinking about the bidness of IM and wondering why they don't offer more of a refund than $150 if someone drops out of an IM. My thought was, why not give say $250 back but then re-sell the slot! I'm sure there are a lot of impulse shoppers who sign up for an IM and a few weeks or months later have buyer's remorse. A refund of only $150 is not much incentive to give up the slot though so I think they'd have to increase the refund a little. Conceivably they could re-sell the same slot 3 or 4 times over the course of the year. As people call in to turn in their slot, IM would just call the next person on the waiting list, tell them they are in and collect another $500. This would help mitigate the problem of getting into an IM too. The one downside...and maybe the reason they DON'T do this is because they currently sell more slots than they can accomodate knowing they will have 20% DNS. I know this because the RD at IMKY told me last year that they were increasing the number of slots for IMKY 2009 becuase of the exceptionally hight DNS rate for IMKY 2007 and 2008. I guess they keep historical data on each race and pretty much know how many people are gonna show up and race. Thoughts? ~Mike |
| 2009-06-23 10:39 AM in reply to: #2236805 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case It would be a logistical nightmare but it could be done. I'm surprised they haven't implemented this yet, for the money making reason alone. However, I always assumed the reason they didn't give big refunds was to discourage the impulse sign-ups. I mean, once you sing up, you are OUT that $550 if you don't get to the start line. That's a huge reason to think twice about signing up. I always imagined they wanted athletes to take IM seriously, and the registration fee is one way to tell if you are serious about the race. I do think, that if someone is in a legitimate accident during training that makes them physically uncapable of racing, there should be some sort of way for them to get a bigger refund. How you would verify that, I have no idea, but it just seems a shame that if you wreck and break your bones or something you had no control over... that you are simply out that money. |
| 2009-06-23 10:50 AM in reply to: #2236805 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Rogillio - 2009-06-23 11:24 AM The one downside...and maybe the reason they DON'T do this is because they currently sell more slots than they can accomodate knowing they will have 20% DNS. I know this because the RD at IMKY told me last year that they were increasing the number of slots for IMKY 2009 becuase of the exceptionally hight DNS rate for IMKY 2007 and 2008. I guess they keep historical data on each race and pretty much know how many people are gonna show up and race. This is pretty much exactly how they do it from what I gather. They anticipate a certain percentage of DNS when allocating the entries to begin with. |
| 2009-06-23 10:56 AM in reply to: #2236805 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Yes, they over sell the event nowing that X amount of people do not show up.... |
| 2009-06-23 11:03 AM in reply to: #2236805 |
Master 1963 | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Given the training that goes into IM, how many people would really be looking for spots that open up? |
| 2009-06-23 11:07 AM in reply to: #2236943 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case merlin2375 - 2009-06-23 11:03 AM Given the training that goes into IM, how many people would really be looking for spots that open up? Well considering for most IM races you have to sign up a whole year in advance (and the popular ones sell out the first day), I think there would be a good market for those who weren't able to be on site the year before, and didn't catch the online registration window. It's a whole year in advance, so say a few weeks or even a few months later (still 8 months out from the race or even 6!) if a slot opened up it would give someone with a good base ample time to train up. |
| 2009-06-23 11:17 AM in reply to: #2236943 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case merlin2375 - 2009-06-23 11:03 AM Given the training that goes into IM, how many people would really be looking for spots that open up?
I would! I was injurred and now my Aug IM is a DNS....but I could do AZ or FL if I could get a slot. Just look at how many people buy a Kona lottery ticket on just the hopes that they will be one of the 3% that are selected for a slot. Heck, they could even sell a chance to get on the waiting list for a few buck. Or better yet, have people bid on them! ;-) JK ~Mike |
| 2009-06-23 11:18 AM in reply to: #2236863 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case I do think, that if someone is in a legitimate accident during training that makes them physically uncapable of racing, there should be some sort of way for them to get a bigger refund. How you would verify that, I have no idea, but it just seems a shame that if you wreck and break your bones or something you had no control over... that you are simply out that money. I totally agree. I understand that your entry fee is practically out the door before you even sign up...but I've lost HUNDREDS in entry fees because the military decided at the last minute to send me somewhere for training or straight up wouldn't let me leave. Once I got about 30 days notice that I had to be at some training. I wrote the RD and explained the situation and they said, "Sorry, we need 60 days notice to give you any money back." I replied that if the military had given me 60 days notice, THEY would have gotten 60 days notice. The RD still refused to budge. I would think that number of "legitimate" excuses would be small enough that they could afford to make a few exceptions. But I also think the documention has to be more than just a note from a doctor...anyone with a doctor friend can get them to write up a letter. I think you need bills, x-rays, etc. And I would even go so far as to say that "overuse" injuries should not be considered. Anyone can come up with an overuse injury to get their money back. I think it should be reserved for no-kidding major accidents/illnesses that you really had no control over. If you think about it, you have much control over your potential for overuse injuries! So I see three things they should grant nearly full refunds for: Military goat-roping Major accident/illness Death in the immediate family within a certain number of days of the event And to keep this from becoming a hijack...I don't understand why they don't allow larger refunds and then resell slots within a reasonable amount of time...say as much as 3-4 months prior to the race or something. And yes, someone can sign up even weeks before a race and still be prepared. Haven't you people ever heard of someone having a bad race at say, CDA and deciding to go race LP to try again? Pro's do it all the time... |
| 2009-06-23 12:25 PM in reply to: #2236990 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Sifting through "legitimate" vs. "non-legitimite" excuses would be a nightmare. And attempting to define "overuse" injury versus others would be even moreso. I would be against this as it would raise the cost for everybody. I'm willing to accept the risk that something could interfere with my ability to race the same way I'm willing to risk that weather (or some other external event) could alter or cancel a race entirely. Sucks if it happens, of course. The only way to do a "higher refund/resale entry" plan is to sell fewer entries to begin with. I'm pretty sure they could come up with a profit-neutral way of doing this if they so desired. For whatever reason, they haven't desired to do so yet. (One reason may be that more people might be incented to use this option and increase their risk of not being able to fully distribute the slots on shorter notice. Still think they could price for this, but just guessing it hasn't reached the top of their "things to do" list.) |
| 2009-06-23 12:40 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Champion 4942 Richmond, VA | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case the more "user friendly" the experience becomes - the more users want to take part in it. the more that people take part - the less "exclusive" it becomes. the less exclusive it becomes - the less valuable the brand name "Ironman" becomes.
the fact that you are basically out for registration fee simply adds to the tough love that is an Ironman. IMO. |
| 2009-06-23 12:55 PM in reply to: #2237356 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case condorman - 2009-06-23 12:40 PM the more "user friendly" the experience becomes - the more users want to take part in it. the more that people take part - the less "exclusive" it becomes. the less exclusive it becomes - the less valuable the brand name "Ironman" becomes.
the fact that you are basically out for registration fee simply adds to the tough love that is an Ironman. IMO.
Yeah, I wasn't whinning about not getting a bigger refund.....I was just thinking re-selling the slots would be a money maker for them. Say you sold 2,500 tickets @ $500 pp = $1,250,000. Now say you have 20% DNS....that's 500 slots. If you resold those 500 slots, that's another 1/4 million bucks! And if you resold 20% of the 500 slots again, that's another $50k in the coffers. OTOH, if you can really only accomodate 2,000 races and you over-sold to 2,500 in anticipation of DNS, then you've basically done the same thing. Nevah mind. :-) ~Mike |
| 2009-06-23 1:46 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Master 2621 Almaden Valley, San Jose, California | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Last year, after IM Canada, hubby didn't sign up for 2009 Canada because he thought I didn't want him to. Long story......So. 3 weeks later he and I both signed up for IMWI because Canada was closed. THEN, Canada re-opened. Dang. Yesterday, without having enough time to really think it through, because I was worried about CDA closing, and had been procrastinating on my 2010 plans (!) I signed up for CDA - having not even done IMWI yet. this one year out thing is killing me!!! AND, there wasn't a rush.....CDA is still open! |
| 2009-06-23 2:00 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Master 2571 Tiger's Den | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case I was very fortunate. I signed up for CDA 08 via a Community Fund slot... then 10 days before the race I broke my collarbone. I called NA Sports and left tearful messages where I begged to get my registration moved... I think started randomly sending emails... my coach new a lady that worked at NA Sports and I totally guessed at her email... and turns out I guessed correctly... anyhow, they were nice enough to let me move my registration to WI 08, but I'm sure it was because of the whole % of DNS that they were expecting.... To thank the good Karma... I volunteered at the race I was supposed to be racing... I realize I am one of the few who was allowed to move their registration and I completely realize that it was only because I was in on a charity slot... (and maybe because I was so pitiful on the phone and email messages)  |
| 2009-06-23 2:43 PM in reply to: #2236990 |
| Alpharetta, Georgia | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case jldicarlo - 2009-06-23 11:18 AM I do think, that if someone is in a legitimate accident during training that makes them physically uncapable of racing, there should be some sort of way for them to get a bigger refund. How you would verify that, I have no idea, but it just seems a shame that if you wreck and break your bones or something you had no control over... that you are simply out that money. I totally agree. I understand that your entry fee is practically out the door before you even sign up...but I've lost HUNDREDS in entry fees because the military decided at the last minute to send me somewhere for training or straight up wouldn't let me leave. Once I got about 30 days notice that I had to be at some training. I wrote the RD and explained the situation and they said, "Sorry, we need 60 days notice to give you any money back." I replied that if the military had given me 60 days notice, THEY would have gotten 60 days notice. The RD still refused to budge. x2 a military "excuse" should be one they accept with no questions asked. You (and so many others) are putting your life on the line and sacrificing so much to serve.... The least they could do is work with you when something comes up. And I'm sure you had plenty of official documentation - it's not like you can make that stuff up. I still can't believe they refused, wow. |
| 2009-06-23 2:59 PM in reply to: #2237767 |
Champion 8766 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case lisac957 - 2009-06-23 2:43 PM jldicarlo - 2009-06-23 11:18 AM I do think, that if someone is in a legitimate accident during training that makes them physically uncapable of racing, there should be some sort of way for them to get a bigger refund. How you would verify that, I have no idea, but it just seems a shame that if you wreck and break your bones or something you had no control over... that you are simply out that money. I totally agree. I understand that your entry fee is practically out the door before you even sign up...but I've lost HUNDREDS in entry fees because the military decided at the last minute to send me somewhere for training or straight up wouldn't let me leave. Once I got about 30 days notice that I had to be at some training. I wrote the RD and explained the situation and they said, "Sorry, we need 60 days notice to give you any money back." I replied that if the military had given me 60 days notice, THEY would have gotten 60 days notice. The RD still refused to budge. x2 a military "excuse" should be one they accept with no questions asked. You (and so many others) are putting your life on the line and sacrificing so much to serve.... The least they could do is work with you when something comes up. And I'm sure you had plenty of official documentation - it's not like you can make that stuff up. I still can't believe they refused, wow. Aw, thanks. Glad to know somebody cares.I've found race directors to either be 100% accomodating or 100% non-accomodating...with no real inbetween. This one and one other I can vividly remember wouldn't budge AT ALL. But yet a few months ago when I went to register for a tri because it got close enough that I could almost guarantee the military wouldn't pull the rug out from under me...the race was sold out! I e-mailed the RD and explained why I had waited and he e-mailed me a link to get me into the race. I thought that was very nice of him. I know what I signed up to do...and while the inconveniences of the military life have been more than I was anticipating, I still do it. I have just learned to work around the uncertainty to the best of my ability. Obviously you never know when Iran might try to start something and my plans will just get shredded...but you can only do the best you can do. If this means I don't get to do IM's very often because you have to sign up too far in advance, so be it. But since it isn't like I go around signing up for races willy-nilly planning on using the "military card" if the military gets in the way, it WOULD be nice if more RD's would accomodate. I have two races this fall that are now potentially on the chopping block because the military might send me to training. They just told me a week or so ago to pretty much clear my calendar from sometime this fall until mid-summer 2010. Yes, in Sept/Oct I have absolutely NO idea where I could be. That's $400 in entry fees that I stand to lose if the timing doesn't work out. I haven't looked into their cancellation policies, but I probably should. It would really be nice to get that money back if things don't work out. But I was really looking forward to both races.  |
| 2009-06-23 3:52 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Pro 3906 Libertyville, IL | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case You could argue that the probability of someone picking up a slot probably decreases with each passing day due to the level on committment involved. Sure, there would be a small minority that might pick up a slot here or there a few months out, but if you consider from the other thread that a lot of IMs are 50% first timers or thereabouts that would be less likely to sign up for something like this on shorter notice, its probably a good risk protection strategy from a business standpoint. Headaches to police what is and isnt legit, finding secondary buyers who likely in the interim have booked alternate races for their season or have IM off their plate til next year or whenever they can get in, etc, etc. In a way what you purchase when you sign up is an option to a committment to be at the starting line on race day. The closer you get to that day, the less resale value it has. Injuries happen and all that, but in the end, it becomes less likely they will find a buyer unless they were to perhaps decrease the cost. Dunno, could be wrong, but just a though. |
| 2009-06-23 4:14 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Master 1702 Southern Ontario | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case Do they not have a "transfer" policy? I know for Steelhead you can "transfer" your entry to someone else for 25$. That would make sense - they could charge fees - but I guess they'd lose money on those that they were betting weren't going to start. |
| 2009-06-23 8:44 PM in reply to: #2236805 |
Expert 657 Portland | Subject: RE: IM Refund - a business case I agree with the military refund idea, otherwise you should consider yourself lucky to get even the $150 back. |
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