triathletes against zone 2.. who's with me???

I can't answer your question - but I am going back to a mileage plan for next year.  All my runs were in "time" and with HR recommendations - I found I didn't get enough miles logged to feel really good on my run at my half...

What does your coach say is the reason for all z2?  and what does he/she say about you being slower?   You were faster before, but you ended up injured.   So it's sounds like what you were doing before was too much, too soon.  I would not be surprised if your coach felt like you needed to build up much more gradually, so he took you way back so that your body could adapt, & not really worrying about speed.  Once you've built a solid base of running consistently, you could probably start to train by pace & add in some intensity.

The good news is if you were at those paces before, you can probably get back there, and hopefully this time you'll get there injury free.  

Also, you mentioned you are 1.  new to all this.  & 2.  preparing for an IM.  Remember you're trying to train to go a huge distance in all 3 sports.  One of the things I realized in IM training is that I can't have it all (right now).  Being new also, I just had to be able to go the distance above & beyond any speed.  In order for you to be able to recover enough to train the S & B, plus train to go the entire marathon distance, the fatigue points you build from running faster might not be worth the gain, if that makes any sense.   Just guessing. 

That's about right. Assuming your coach has properly determined your training zones, after a period of time, you will likely see your pace coming down while in that same Zone 2. This is a method of gradually building base aerobic endurance. Training for an Ironman vs. a Marathon are VERY different. You also make no note of what kind of bike training you are doing, so it's kind of hard to gauge the total volume of work you do which would also contribute to what you perceive as slower run pacing.

GPS: I believe his explanation was that I will be "racing" (and I use that term loosely) in zone 2 in an IM and my body needs to be acclimated to being in zone 2 and using fat as a fuel source. And I do believe what I did last year got me injured because it was too intense and the good news about all the slow running is that I have been able to train consistently without injury. He did make mention that this is the plan for THIS YEAR and alluded to the fact that once i get one under my belt, next years training will be different. One thing that is encouraging is that I can really gauge my pace/rpe and find the spot where i can go all day and i think that will be important on race day.

Bryancd: thanks for the feedback. I actually thought my pace at zone 2 was supposed to get faster as I trained there but its been 6 months. Isn't that long enough?? Also a good point that my long runs are always after a long bike day so that definitely contributes to a slower pace.

Edited by lesleyann 2009-09-07 6:46 PM

I did mostly zone 2 work on the bike which was slower than I have ridden last 3 years with lower power numbers.

Run I ran by pace and ran more, felt I was slower, but the 6 weeks before IM my easy pace dropped quite a bit as my volume increased.

Running in IM is all about what came before executing your swim/bike pace properly, fueling/hydration setting you up to run your best.

My coach had me run my goal IM pace which seemed super easy...then we worked on pacing and dropping my pace the longer my run went based on what he outlined like do 8 miles at xx pace, do 2 at yy pace, then 2 at yy-60" pace, it was all moving towards speeidn up. For me the cool thing was even though I had horrendous bike and was throwing up much of it and didn't get enough calories or hydration to stay in me, I was able to have a PB Mary for an IM and finish second half within 5-6' of first half and ran hard the last 3 miles passing 51 folks.

If you don't trust your coach you really need to have a heart to heart with him/her. Trust is critical to having sucess.

1.  I would trust your coach....he said this year, he said next year would be different.  Go with it for now.

2.  6 months....I've heard running takes years.  I've been running consistently since Jan and seen virtually no improvement in speed, just that i can run for longer.  But, i'm injury free.  And now i'm starting to work slowly on getting a little faster.

Stick with the HR training. I do metabolic testing with my coach and it is truly amazing how going slower makes you faster. Read this link on my blog about my experience. I just did my last test this past Friday to get my HR zones for IM WI and turns out my run zone 2 threshold HR is all the way up to 170bpm. That means I am still burning fat as fuel even with a HR of 170. This equates to me being able to run 7:30/mi pace and not burn carbs. In December of this year my HR zone 2 threshold HR was only 159....

http://becomingaironman.blogspot.com/2009/02/letter-to-team-in-trai...

How did you determine your HR Zones? There are a lot of different methods to find your optimal HR Zones (some better than others). It is possible that what you think is Zone 2 may only be Zone 1.

i had a lactate threshold test on the bike in march and my zones were determined from that. He told me to add 10 bpm on to my bike zones to get my run zones. Sound right to you guys?? I also haven't been retested since then.

Yes, that's about right, usually run is 5-10 higher than bike.

bskyllin: Thanks. Great story. I guess I just need to be patient. That is what I had read is supposed to happen. It just hasn't happend yet for me.

Well your testing protocol sounds pretty accurate. Was the lactate threshold test done with blood pricks or a mask and CO2 capture type? My only suggestion is simply, just stick with it. Don't get frustrated with your pace at all. Who cares how fast you are going. You won't loose the speed you will just learn to get fast by using FAT not carbs. Since training with HR zones, I look at each one of my workouts and I get excited not when I run 7 min miles but when my HR is below 150 and I am cranking out 8 min miles. Its kind of like mpg in car. I used to be a truck and now I am hybrid. Like they always say Work smarter not harder Read this article from Mark Allen to help remind yourself you are doing the right thing.

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Thanks everyone! Sounds like I am on track. I think for me my frustration is due to my crushed ego. I had/have some friends asking me to do half marys with them and I go out and add 20 minutes on to my time from last year and its just embarrassing. I am thinking that they are thinking, "lol! and she is going to do an ironman. yeah right." Pretty stupid huh?? I am officially over it. I know what my goal is that that is all that matters!

btw, my LT test was with finger sticks

Edited by lesleyann 2009-09-08 8:16 AM

I don't believe in limiting training intensities (i.e. do all running @ z2) just to "build a base" or to imporve your body's ability to use more fat for fuel as that is just not accurate, however I do believe in consistent training, specificity and providing the adequate training load for an athlete based on their 1) experience level (current fitness), 2) goals (race distance) and 3) training phase (needs).

For some athletes it makes sense to spend more time running at lower intensities if they are new to endurance training, running and/or IM. For an experienced and/or fast runner, spending too much time training at lower intensities beyond their key sessions to induded adaptations specific to the race (i.e. long run) can and will be a waste of time. I do encourage my athletes to train by pace and perceived exertion rather than HR because of it limitations but mainly because our fitness level and chronic fatigue changes days after day. If an athlete is feeling good a particular day then it is ok if they go a bit faster of the suggested pace, OTOH if they are tired they can go @ or just below the suggested pace. This will enable them to train at the best possible intensity for your body for the day. 

In your case if you trust your coach and program then stick to it, you can always ask questions and understand what's the reasoning behind it and when it doesn't makes sense to you challenge it so you can learn. A key piece of information that you cited was that you have been running injury free when that has not been the case in the past. Most athletes ignore this very IMPORTANT fact in their need to get faster. Also remember that depending on when your big race is sometimes is normal to experience a drop on speed as you get close to your race or during a big training cycle as the chronic fatigue has reached a point in which you need to rest before you notice the gains.

If you feel and know you can run a bit faster then talk to your coach and see if you can do some sessions faster; no one knows your body better than you and if you two have a constant communication and exchange feedback you'll be able to train more efficiently and he/she will be able to get you know you as an athlete better to help you improve much more. Good luck.

I'm reading Noakes' The Lore of Running right now.  There is some merit to the statement of "training" your body to use the fat stores more efficiently.

Your body still goes after the easy sources first, but the reality is that it is physically impossible (by crunching the numbers) to do a HIM or IM on glycogen stores and what you take in during a race.  In fact, it becomes imperative that your body burns fat stores in a manner to keep up with the demands.

Noakes demostrates that when Allen and Scott had their epic battle and ran in the 2:40's side by side until the last 2 miles (or whatever it was) that based on all physiological modeling that with the glycolytic energy sources available that they should have only been able to run in a 3:20 range.

I certainly agree that doing a ton of training in one zone is not as beneficial as varying intensities and distances.  But there is something to be said about training slower that I'm warming up to the idea about (for longer distance endurance racing).

Just my thoughts.

To the OP?  Trust your coach, they should know what they are doing ........

thanks daremo and jorge. Yes, my coach is a very experienced ironman competitor and coach. He certainly knows his stuff. I definitely believe he will get me to where i need to be. I just needed to hear what others experience were regarding this topic. I guess i just had a smidge of doubt. I do always remember when the doubt creeps in that I am NOT INJURED after all this training and that is what is important. And i cannot say all my runs are zone 2. Usually once a week expect the cut week, I do some form of track work and every now and again he will say "run how you feel." But predominantly it is zone 2.

But I am not contending that we can't improve our body's ability to become more efficient at utilizing fat as fuel; I do contend the premise that training at lower intensities will enhace your ability to use fat as fuel is, specifically when training levels are man made to make training more efficiently hence there is no one beginning and end to what adaptations occur at different levels. All levels interlayer with each other and produce training adaptations though at a lesser degree. Also by targeting training adaptations at your power threshold (defined as your 60 min mx effort) for instance you get to produce a greater range of physiological adaptations such as increase muscle glycogen storage, mitochondrial enzymes, plasma volume, increase lactate threshold, etc. than let's say training at 56-75% of your 60 min max effort (aka known as endurance or zone 2) which primarily adaption is to increase muscle fiber fatigue resistance.

Training at lower intensities for HIM/IM is important due to the specificty concept however you can improve your body's ability to use fat for fuel by training at a different range of intensities, however to suggest that the best and/or only way to improve your body's ability to use fat for fuel is by limiting your training to do all sessions @ or below z2, specifically as suggested by Allen using the "formula" it is inaccurate. For instance, you can focus on increasing your power/pace treshold and by doing so you will now require less glycogen as fuel the primary source of fuel at different intensities.

Another thing to consider is that our body's will choose fuel sources based on more than training intensity; other factors such as duration of session, current fitness level, genetics, temperature, diet pre training and long term, other such as topography, humidity, altitude, surface, etc. will also have an impact on this. That's why I am skeptic about some of the meatbolic testing services offered done around for triathletes. For instance; a person on a low carb diet might force the body to use more fat for fuel however this does not mean the athlete is more efficient at fueling training sessions nor he/she might have a better ability to exert a lower intensities for longer periods of time. It is just a mere reflection on thier choice of nutrition.

My point is that IMO we shouldn't follow a one size fits all approach, we should look at the athlete's needs and based on that prescribe the best training load for that athlete given current fitness level, goals, experience, schedule, etc. Also a mix of training load between volume and intensity at the right rime (cycle) will most likely yield faster ROI. Yes, if you do all your training at lower intensities you will improve on the long run; what's important to consider is: can you improve by doing smart training (enough load given my abilities/constraints) in a shorter period of time?

PS. I read the Lore of Running a while ago at it was intriguing and informative though I don't necessarely agree 100% on the "Central Governor" Theory.

Edited by JorgeM 2009-09-08 2:10 PM

Did you taper enough for the half mary?  If you were carying some fatigue into the race, it would affect your pace.  My coach's  goal was also to have me do my IM in zone 2.  It has taken me 2 years to see any serious improvement on my speed.  Granted I got initially better just being able to cover the distance, but it has really been after literally 2000+ miles of running in 2 years that I am seeing the speed improve, like in the past month.  Now to carry that speed into runs longer than 6 miles.  I am sure your coach will add in some strides, hills, pickups, 5k specific 1 minute effort repeats etc., once he/she is confident in your injury free running base.