Half IM trianing, questions, workouts, food for thought

Without knowing the breakdown of the pervious race tough to say...Tough to shave off 15 mins at the point end of the field.

I would do a 56 mile ride at goal watts and then try and run goal pace +15-30 secs off the bike. That will give you a pretty good idea if your goal is possible.

188NP just netted me a 2:33 bike split on a flat course with all the aero goodies similiar weight and FTP. Only rode with an IF of .76 though. You can probably hold .82 IF (steady though) and grab 5-6 faster.

What is your VDOT? What have you run off the bike in a 1/2?

Edited by running2far 2009-07-24 4:35 PM

the last half was a 24 min PR over two years ago,

rolling bike course HILLY AS SNOT run course (rockman)

have dropped about 2 min from the swim since then
bike was 2:28i think, 210 watts, rolling course, rode this on the conservitive side
run was 1:44 i think.

milage leading up to the race was about 15mpw ave running for the two months before, 25-35 in the three months before that.

bike volume those last two months was down as well, 6-8 hours a week or so.
i dropped an outboard motor on my foot so i was out of much running/biking for a while.

this course is both a dead flat bike and run.

i'm thinking course change alone would be worth half a MPH on the bike, 15 ish sec per mile on the run?>

Sounds like my kind of course. Which race are you looking at?

What will be the anticipated race days temps compared to your last race? RW magazine had a chart of expected 13.1 times at different temps and some of the differences were very substantial. Also, the flat run could easily be worth 15/sec per mile.

ah, I thought you meant your 4:44 was two months ago....

32 Swim + 2 transition
2:22 bike - good solid .82 should get you there on a smart ride.

Can you run a sub 1:35 off the bike ------ THAT IS THE QUESTION to really ask.

4:44 was two months ago on little training,
5:09 was the same course two years ago.

both on the same hilly course.

as an example of the run course, the first three miles are rolling hills, and i ave 7:10 for those, the last 10 are up and down like crazy, and ended up with a 7:48 run ave

i think after 3 months running solidly, plus biking, i should be able to ave that time.

race day temps should be the same or cooler.

as long as there is not huricane like last year weather should be good haha.

what are the limiters for longer course racing? the speed is there, but i have VERY little experince with longer stuff.

no problem going 55 min for sprints, olympic right around 2 hours.

This user's post has been ignored.

I am not a sub 4:30 guy yet, but have the same intrest as you, with one difference. I don't expect to brake 4:30 this year as I have been consistent this year and have two PR over HIM distance.
You can go into my loggs and have a look. Being a coach, may even give you a better insight.
Here is some background:

38 years old, 155lbs, 5'9"
no background in any of the 3 sports, during high school was elite level paddler, flat water sprint kayaking for 7 years, last time I biked was as a child, never owned a road bike

2 years in triathlon, 10 races, 2 HIMs, 2009 70.3 New Orleans 4:47, 2009 70.3 KS 4:44, olympic hilly 2:18

trainingpeaks.com VC with my tweaking, read al the books from Friel, Gordo, Tom Rodgers....carry them everwhere with me

annual volume this year 650hrs, Base 3 Week 3 peak volume 19hrs, most weeks 15-16hrs
swim 3-4/week about avg 10000m, bike 4xweek, about 150mi, running varies, peak was 50mi, now 35-40/week
I enjoy structure very much and suffer from moderate OCD about my workouts

My benchmak workouts are 1 ME brick 2.5hr bike Z2 30min/Z3 1.5hrs/ Z4 30min, 45min-1hr run Z3-4, target race pace
long run/fast finish out in Z2, back in Z3-4 15mi total, in Base 3 went to 18mi

running is my weakness
bike seems to be my strength, 2:27 split both times/ official times, but my FR305 showed KS avg 22.7mph Z3 and 4

more details in my loggs, I leave a lot of notes

I have Redman/LC nationals coming up with a goal of sub 4:40. I don't think I can come close to 4:30 this year as I have been working consitently, can't do any more than I am doing.
Hopefully you can take it up a level or two an achieve it. I am interested in this thread and will be watching for responses.
Good luck.

Edited by atasic 2009-07-24 7:45 PM

2008 was my 70.3 focus year. I went 4:26 at Vineman and 4:18 at Clearwater. My triathlon career began in 2006. I went to Ironman in 2007, finishing IMAZ in 9:43 and Kona in 9:40. I was a runner for years, a swim team kid, and an Ultimate frisbee player. I won the gene pool lottery. My mother is a previous IM world record holder for womens Masters twice in the '80's.
I went sub 4:30 at my first Half in 2006. So there is my background.

For 2008, I trained on average 12-15 hours per week. Total volume for 2008 was:
Bike: 262h 43m 55s - 5599.21 Mi
Run: 211h 02m 41s - 1770.08 Mi
Swim: 115h 51m 27s - 400026 Yd
Run mileage is high as I ran the Boston Marathon in April. Key workouts for me are always tempo rides and interval runs. Tempo work at Half and 10K race pace. I didn't do a ot of tempo or interval rides, but I still rode very fast, 2:28 down o 2:15. Run pace was 1:30-1:27. Swim was 30-29. You need to look at pacing a competetove Half almost like an Olympic.




Edited by bryancd 2009-07-24 7:51 PM

trust me, i know how much is plays here, but i agree with you.

i went into rockman no where near ready for that bike, and while i rode within my means it was not as fast as i would have liked.


just to add some fuel to the fire, is there really any way to put a number to weight loss = x amount of run time gained?

really just trying to run through things in my head, get some talk going, etc.

not sure if me hitting that time in this race is doable or not.

1pound equals like :02 seconds.

man i just got done telling myself if i raced anything like an olympic i would be toast;-)

Isn't there a separate forum for disgustingly fast people so that the rest of us can still feel good about our plebian times?

Edited by SevenZulu 2009-07-24 8:02 PM

if its that much there is almost 4 min right there......

From what I have read, racing it almost like olympic is very true at least at the elite level. One of the approaches to HIM training is that a frame of olympic distance training is taken, than you extend your long swim, bike and run. Intervals focus on longer efforts in Z4-5a....... When I read Tom Rodgers book on HIM my eyeballs popped when I read the advnaced athlete HR zone guidance for racing. I thought just like you, I even wrote a note next to that table that he was on crack. But it is true. While the pacing does not instantly start hot as in olympic distance, it does quickly build up during each s/b/r and ends in Z5a to even 5b on the run.
You have to be able to train like that to race it the same way. I think I missed my boat on that at 38, not having running background is hurting my outlook.

I entered my Halfs at about the same race weight as IM. I wouldn't worry about body weight, just worry about SPEED. Speed means work means a lot more in a Half than IM.

i hear you on pacing.

right now i have a lot more on the speed side of things than the long side, probably a combimation of how i am built, rowing background, and being younger.

the weight was not really a goal, but more of a happenstance through training, new living situation, etc.

raced rockman at 160, sitting on 148-9 right now.

running is coming along well, the trail running has A made things a lot more fun, and B allowed me to both push pace/distance a bit more without it tearing my legs up.

running is focused around a tempo, a long, and a hill interval day for the 3 main workouts, 3 more in the 3-6 mile range as additional millage.

biking since rockman has changed in the following ways:

position is a bit lower/narrower (no loss in power/no upping of HR when i did this).
body weight is lighter
new front wheel
new frame
lots more climbing.
training at altitude.

should be fun to say the least.

Halfs should be easy to predict as you can train the distances. If you swim a sub :30, bike a sub 2:30, and can run a sub 1:30, welcome to the sub 4;30 club. Your training should tell you if this is possible or not. You won't show up at a rcae with magical extra speed.

have gone under 2:30 on the bike already this year undertrained on hills, check
swam a 27:48 open water 2000m last wekeend, check.

run, we'll see soonish.

If you can run an open Half marathon under 1:25 you should be able to run a Half IM split under 1:30. That swim split doesn't mean as much as courses vary so much.

Edited by bryancd 2009-07-24 10:04 PM

hmmmmmm