Discuss

From the article: "attempt to castrate himself and to attempt twice to kill himself while incarcerated.”

But no mention of what sort of psychiatric or psychological counseling has been done. I would hope that before performing surgery, he would have received a pretty comprehensive evaluation. But in the forensic setting, I would doubt it.

I was surprised by this story as well.

I have done some reading about gender reassignment surgery, transgender issues, etc, and in general would say that it's very complicated business.  I am sure this individual is suffering greatly, but I think the judge made a rather extreme decision about this.

For a regular person, they would be obligated to do some amount of counseling (I have heard from 3 months to a year on average) before a doctor would do the procedure.  This person clearly needs a lot of help.  I worry that having this surgery will not provide the solution they hope and will still end badly.   It's a really sad situation all around.  I just can't imagine what deep issues the prisoner has, starting with how they came to murder their wife, etc. 

I also think it's really irresponsible for the judge to save said this: "He said it is up to prison officials to decide how and where to house Kosilek after the surgery."  

She needs to be housed in the women's prison!  This needed to be sorted out with the other rulings.  This will not end well.

Is prison punitive, or rehabilitative?

Is it there solely as a deterrent, or should it also act as a preventative measure?

The person in question is serving life without the possibility of parole. I would believe that at that point, its punitive.

Then the next question might be:  "Is it cruel or unusual to not provide this service to someone, when they could potentially avail themselves of the service outside of the prison system?"

I don't believe the issue is cut-and-dried.   Clearly this is a tormented soul.   I don't think we would (at least I hope we wouldn't) deny treatment to someone in prison with other mental/emotional issues. 

IMHO, refusing to provide the surgery is like keeping this person in prison twice.   Once in a big building, and once in their own body.   I know others will disagree. 

We all have our crosses to bear. There are plenty that that say they are trapped in the wrong body...OK. Not all can afford reassignment surgery. Certainly not all choose to do it. Some just live with it. Obviously it is a personal subjective decision, all I'm saying is that it is not an "automatic" surgery for everyone.

So then what of the tormented soul that has been law abiding all their life... they do not get surgery. What about those that are "trapped" in the prison system that choose not to?

The prison I feel has done a great job of addressing the situation with counseling and hormones. Some free people that have not murdered anyone do not even have access to that. I do feel we have the responsibility to provide care... but only to a point... it isn't cancer.

It was the person's choice to put themselves in the big building by murdering someone. Ask that person how they feel about the surgery.

It could also be to protect US!

It's certainly an interesting topic for sure.

I guess it boils down to if you feel it's an elective surgery or not.  I know there are heated opinions on both sides of the issue.

If someone breaks a leg, there's no issues with them getting that emergency fixed on the taxpayer dime.  If he wants to get calf implants then it's a pure elective surgery and nobody would want that done on the taxpayer dime.

Gender reassignment is in the middle somewhere and depending on ones personal beliefs on the topic of elective versus emergency is where I think most people fall on the issue.

I found this post while doing some searching through the forums and thought I'd add my $0.02.

I do believe that for certain people, this is a life-threatening medical condition, and if not treated at some point, will shorten the affected's lifespan. That was certainly true for me. Which means, if Kosilek needs this, she ought to have it, and it's no different than any other sort of life-saving medical care which the prison system would be required to pay for. If Kosilek's therapists and caregivers say that she needs it, she needs it. I believe she's tried to castrate herself and has attempted suicide twice.

I understand why this is so unpalatable to people. Heck, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But that's what I think.

One point of clarification... the OP made a reference to "hundreds of thousands of dollars," and the cost is nowhere near that for MtF people. The cost is around $15,000. For FtM people, the cost can be much higher due to the complexity of the procedure.

If this potential exists, then the prisoner should pay for the surgery.

For this specific sort of surgery, or any kind of surgery?

I was responding specifically to the question posed.  The question seemed to suggest (or at least pose the possibility) that it would be cruel or unusual punishment to prevent the prisoner from availing themself of a surgery that they could otherwise enjoy outside of the prison system.  I simply question if they actually could.

Not 100% sure that I'm following... but you mean that had the prisoner not been incarcerated, that said prisoner would not have been able to have the procedure for financial reasons?

I think I would have to side with this. ^^

I don't know.  But since the poster who posed the question seemed to equate cruel or unusual punishment to depriving a prisoner of a procedure that they had the potential to enjoy but for the incarceration, then we need to determine if that potential existed. 

I don't think the courts have used that as a test. The judge in this particular case certainly didn't, anyway. And besides, at this point, 23 years since Kosilek was incarcerated, there's no way to make that determination.

As I said, I was addressing the question the previous poster asked.

I bet his fellow inmates would do the operation for free.

Mark