"Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"?
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2012-05-22 12:09 PM |
Elite 3498 Laguna Beach | Subject: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? This spins off a post in another thread but is an interesting debate in itself. Is it better to pound out distance hoping your stroke (and fitness) will adapt to the most efficient version over time or take a more "total immersion" approach that espouses an almost entirely drill-based workout for training? This is likely an ad nauseum debate but it may be worth chatting about for a minute. |
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2012-05-22 12:12 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I don't think that "just hoping" you improve is a good strategy for anyone at any time...whether they are drilling or swimming. Drills can be done poorly or done by rote without resulting in any improvement. Swimming volume without regard to form can result ina lot of yardage with poor progression of skills. Structured well, whole stroke swimmign with specific stroke thoughts can be just as, or more helpful than drills or vice versa. it just depends on... -your skill level -how many bad habits you have to break -if you can feel the bad habit when you swim whole stroke -what makes you happy |
2012-05-22 12:27 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Expert 2098 Ontario Canada | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? As a current learner I think that you can benifit from both if the drills are done properly. I have noticed if I start to have some difficulty breathing ie; grabbing water then a few laps of side kick drills will improve my rotation a bit on the next few laps of freestyle and correct the problem, the same with some other drills as well, but I do agree that there is no substitite for doing the distances/ time in order to build up any kind of endurance. This sunday was the first time I was actually able to stay in the pool for a couple of Hours, usually I swim on my lunch hour this limits my time in the water to around 40 minutes, On sunday I was able to finally have my longest workout so far 2 hrs, this really seemed to help me today during my lunch time 40 minute workout so the extra time in the water helps too without a dought. |
2012-05-22 12:27 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Expert 2192 Greenville, SC | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? i just swim, but during my swim i try different things with my stroke entrance/kick/breathing/arm lever. at the beginning of april i did my first swim and was barely able to complete 100 meters without stopping. as of now i am swimming well over a mile with ease.
now i just need to work on my sighting Edited by Clempson 2012-05-22 12:28 PM |
2012-05-22 12:31 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Veteran 406 Salt Lake City | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I "just swim" because I don't really know any drills. Well, I can read about drills, but I don't really know if I'm doing them right or what I'm supposed to be getting out of said drill. So, I just swim. If I had a coach I would be happy to do drills. |
2012-05-22 12:32 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I guess the main factor for me when working with someone is whether or not they can feel the incorrect and correct positions, movements or sensations when swimmign whole stroke. If I've tried a dozen different ways to get someone to rotate & extend by giving them different visual analogies & focal pints, etc....and they are still not doing it, then it's time for a drill. |
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2012-05-22 12:32 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Elite 3140 | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I feel both are important , but that is just me...i used to be the one to swim continuously and it helped with confidence when starting out and when i was a beginner I could even swim 4000yds non stop...however I was doing a 210-215/100......i added a traditional drill/set program and I am 1:45-1:55 depending on the race and set......so i still do long swims(like today) but short sets are still a big part of my program |
2012-05-22 12:34 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Expert 1123 Falls Church, VA | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I never understand why this is so black and white..
warm up
do some drills
do a main set
cool down
I do 25-50% of my workout as drills/pull sets |
2012-05-22 12:38 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Expert 1566 Prattville Insane Asylum San Antonio | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I do both. I started out where I would swim and my hips would drop due to my picking my head up because of breathing issues. So I worked on breathing drills. Once I got the breathing down to one side breathing, I worked on my stroke. Then found my breathing to one side was an issue for me, so I worked on bilateral breathing which led me to streamlining to help me work on my form some more and more breath control drills. Once I had streamlining down and my hips were no longer dropping, I worked on my flipturns so that I could continue with breathing control and working on my form. Now I am working on my pull to reduce my energy expenditure as well as the high elbow technique. I have gotten to where my hips no longer sink, and I can swim the distances, but now would like to work on my technique to be more proficient. |
2012-05-22 12:40 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Regular 853 | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I pretty much just swim. I live in an area where I have difficulty finding the pool open for the most part, so I am lucky to even get to do that. The next closest pool is about an hour and 15 mins away, and it is primarily a retirement area where people do group classes. I would have to drive an hour and a half to get to a pool with any coaches or masters classes available. I would have to be there at 5a.m. and I have 2 children that have to be ready and go to school daily, so yeah, I just get happy when the pool is available to me and I get in and just do the best I can. jami |
2012-05-22 12:43 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Champion 11989 Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-22 1:09 PM
Is it better to pound out distance hoping your stroke (and fitness) will adapt to the most efficient version over time or take a more "total immersion" approach that espouses an almost entirely drill-based workout for training? Yes. |
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2012-05-22 12:46 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Elite 3779 Ontario | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I agree that both have their place. For me personally at the moment - it's all about my swim fitness. That's not to say I'm not trying to conciously work on things while swimming, but one of my big personal issues is how the effort of the swim impacts my bike & run. So my emphasis at the moment is to be able to swim close to a TT pace and have that impact me less 3-4 hours later than has been the case in the past. |
2012-05-22 12:49 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-22 11:09 AM Is it better to pound out distance hoping your stroke (and fitness) will adapt to the most efficient version over time or take a more "total immersion" approach that espouses an almost entirely drill-based workout for training? Heh...I missed this on the original read through. I just did a 2 hour workshop with Terry in Pittsburgh that was almost no drills...we recognize that many people learn faster and better in whole stroke...adn we don't alienate anyone who simply doesn't "like" to do drills. Like I said, it just depends. If anyone is intrigued, here is the write up I did of our Effortless Endurance taster clinic...which was mostly whole stroke learning and significant changes / improvements occured across the board. http://steelcityendurance.com/swimming/total-immersion-effortless-e... |
2012-05-22 12:50 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I pretty much agree with Suzanne. I think it depends on the swimmer. A swimmer who has excellent form would probably be better off "just swimming". A swimmer with a lot of form flaws could certainly benefit from some drills (as well as probably swimming more frequently, and perhaps shorter distances until form improves), but without someone to help them, which drills might be helpful and which might be a waste of time can be hard to figure out. Most of us are probably somewhere in between. I don't tend to do much drill work, but in all honesty, I would probably benefit from doing a bit more of it. |
2012-05-22 1:01 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Melon Presser 52116 | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Whatever Suzanne (AdventureBear) said, and this is what I've got to say ... If you have specific goals in training, then every session should have a point. The question is, what's the point and exactly how will doing this achieve that point towards my goal? So it depends on where you're at in swimming, where you want to be, and how that fits into triathlon overall. I will say all-drills as an extreme is a lousy way to go when there are other ways to focus and shape whole swimming that actually constitute what you will be doing swimming. If you plan to do your whole swim leg of a tri doing a drill ... well, then go nuts, I guess. Drills are ONE means to an end. They are not the end. For example, in his IM training plans, Don Fink includes 800m of drills in EVERY SINGLE SWIM SESSION. I think that's asinine. I don't know anyone who's actually followed that (sure there may be some). Everyone I know has done masters squads or other well-structured SWIM (not drill) workouts, even though they may do some drills. But not a huge chunk of every session. |
2012-05-22 1:02 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
18 | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? I drill in the pool, "just swim" in open water. |
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2012-05-22 1:04 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Extreme Veteran 717 Chicago, USA | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Tom Demerly. - 2012-05-22 12:09 PM Is it better to pound out distance hoping your stroke (and fitness) will adapt to the most efficient version over time or take a more "total immersion" approach that espouses an almost entirely drill-based workout for training? The short answer is, neither. If you've got technique problems, it is very, very unlikely that they'll improve randomly with just more swimming. Because, for 99% of adult swimmers, they don't. Equally, random drills won't improve your swim technique. What WILL improve your technique is getting exact feedback on what YOU are doing wrong. And then getting instruction on HOW exactly to do it right. Of course, finding a person who is qualified to give you such feedback and instruction can be challenging, as unfortunately many swim coaches are not able to do this. |
2012-05-22 1:08 PM in reply to: #4223026 |
Expert 661 Maui, Hawaii | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Bioteknik - 2012-05-22 7:34 AM I never understand why this is so black and white..
warm up
do some drills
do a main set
cool down
I do 25-50% of my workout as drills/pull sets ^^^^This. x2. |
2012-05-22 1:12 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Champion 7036 Sarasota, FL | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? Both. Nothing to debate here. Look at any collegiate or Olympic swim team workout - both drills & big volume. Swimming is too technical not to include drills. Not if you want to improve. Mark |
2012-05-22 5:29 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Pro 6011 Camp Hill, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? It's best to focus on technique all the time. This is true whether you're doing a drill, or trying to hit the send off time on your 20th 100 in a hard set. During a drill, the focus is all technique, because the purpose is to develop unconscious competence (something that's done well without consciously thinking about it) in one part of a stroke by isolating it from the rest of the stroke, allowing 100% focus on that part. During a hard set, attention needs to be split between effort and technique. My instructions to someone when I've assigned a hard set is to focus more on technique while maintaining a high effort level whenever they start to get tired and are struggling. If they let their form fall apart every time they fatigue, all that's going to happen is development of bad habits. If they can maintain their form while putting out a hard effort, then they will get results. Edited by TriMyBest 2012-05-22 5:33 PM |
2012-05-22 5:36 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Master 7712 Orlando | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? i swim with a masters club, so i do whatever the coach puts on the board. sometimes the workout includes drills, other times it doesn't. As i understand it, practice does not make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. I'm trying to get there. |
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2012-05-22 6:09 PM in reply to: #4223778 |
Veteran 262 | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? http://joelfilliol.blogspot.ca/2012/01/most-popular-post-on-this-blog-is-is.html
1. Conditioning trumps drills. Technique matters, but the way most athletes try to improve technique doesn't work. Get fitter, and your ability to hold good technique improves. It takes a lot of work to develop aerobic conditioning in your upper body. If you think you are already swimming a lot but are not improving, swim more and keep at it. There are no shortcuts.
Ahh i love this debate.... i do what the previous poster says (warm up, do some drills, do a main set, cool down). I do believe that hard work has improved me more than anything.
Edited by chrishayward 2012-05-22 6:10 PM |
2012-05-22 6:20 PM in reply to: #4223141 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? RedCorvette - 2012-05-22 12:12 PM Both. Nothing to debate here. Look at any collegiate or Olympic swim team workout - both drills & big volume. Swimming is too technical not to include drills. Not if you want to improve. Mark Well, drills but mostly big volume. They aren't even close to proportional in regards to time spent. |
2012-05-22 6:29 PM in reply to: #4223855 |
Expert 913 Lost in the Evergreens | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? You would make your coach proud, if you took those workouts and swam on your own time a couple of days a week. If you wanted to get better at running, how many days a week would you expect to run? I swim 2 days a week with a masters group. When I asked my coach what was the number one thing I should do to swim farther/faster, she said swim 4-5 times a week. |
2012-05-22 7:20 PM in reply to: #4222934 |
Carrollton, TX | Subject: RE: "Just Swim" or "Drill, Drill, Drill"? a lot of triathletes think 2-3 times a week should be sufficient to get good in the pool (usually 45 minutes at a time). Sure, if you have serious flaws in your stroke and can barely make it across the pool, learning how to swim should be your first priority. After that, there's no shortcuts to going from BOP to FOP other than putting in thousands of yards. Here's the catch though, a lot of people make the mistake of swimming too long of intervals, and their form breaks down way too much for them to be effectively improving the right muscles. So essentially, yes they are just putting in junk miles swimming at a turtle's pace without really getting the gains. Swimming is a non-impact sport and the body reacts very well to very short but hard sets with good form (50s/100s). Unlike running, if you can hammer out sets of 100s going very hard with rest intervals, you will actually find it easier to swim for longer periods of time at a good pace. Sure, throwing in a 1000 to see where you're at every now and then is fine, but I see waaaay too many people at the pool swimming slowly and steadily doing junk yards which is not what I advocate when i tell people they need to put in the time to get faster. If you wanted to run a very fast 10k/half/or marathon, no way would 2-3 runs a week 45 minutes at a time get you to FOP. The same goes for swimming. |
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