Federal debt rose 57% under Obama to date

well, that's one way to look at it.  But, you do realize that the economy crashed in 2008 and when Obama took over he was holding the bag of that the prior administration left him- a $1.4T budget deficit.  That's been whittled down faster than any budget deficit in the past- even despite no meaningful legislation has gotten through the GOP house since 2010.  The latest estimate I've seen for the 2013 budget deficit is $642B.

Every european country has now demonstrated that in this economy, government austerity ultimately contributed to lower growth and worse budget deficits.

So- what exactly is your point here?  Did you want him to slash $1.4T out of government spending?  And if so- what programs do you think he should have killed?

I'm a huge proponent of a balanced budget amendment at the Federal level as well as a flat consumption tax for everyone to pay their fair share.
No matter who is in office half the country will disagree with what they're spending money on, so why give them an open credit card.  If you want to put in a new law for XXX then show me where you're going to cut the money or raise the taxes.  The way it is now you have both sides just spending and spending and nobody cutting.

Why is the debt up so much?  It's simple math.  Revenues are down and spending is up, that's why our debt is exploding.  I don't care who you blame, because it doesn't really matter.

 I always love the European comparisons, so I'll raise you one.  In Europe they tax everyone with a 20%+ VAT.  However, in America we want to be like Europe with our entitlements, but we won't tax like Europe.  Half the country doesn't pay ANY federal taxes.

In Europe:
Rich people pay 20%+ VAT on everything they buy
Poor people pay 20%+ VAT on everything they buy
Illegal immigrants pay 20%+ VAT on everything they buy
Criminals pay 20%+ VAT on everything they buy 

This graph should tell you all you need to know.  We spend more than we make, and we want to keep spending more, but we refuse to raise taxes on anybody but the rich.
Also, notice how fast spending increased during the last recession versus to any of the others.  (both Bush and Obama's fault)

Didn't you get the memo.  The economy can never fail or go down, we have to prop it up so everyone wins.  Think of the children... Everybody gets a trophy. 

LOL, the deficit hasn't been "whittled away" by anyone.  ANY president who came into office at the time Obama did would have seen reduced deficits...as long as they didn't do anything to freak out the economy, and as long as Congress didn't increase spending.

Congress DID let the Bush Tax cuts expire which increased revenue.   Congress also did agree to, and then fail to prevent, the sequester, which froze spending.    Together with increased revenue from a recovering economy (more people and businesses paying more taxes on more earnings) the deficit has been reduced.

By their very nature, the Socialist governments of Europe have an economy that is MUCH more dependent on their government spending, so austerity is clearly going to hurt their economy more!  US GDP even in the face of the sequester is growing at 2.5%   Not great, but not the zero-growth(0.3%) scenario playing out in Europe.

I encourage people to have a look at this site: Stabilize the Debt which allows you to pick and choose how to stabilize the debt, and shows you the results of every choice you make.   Very informative (and fun!) site.

That's a very cool website. I got pretty close on my first try, I saved 5 trillion dollars and stabilized the debt in 2022. After that the choices get really tough.

yeah, medicare, social security, federal pensions... big unfunded liabilities- but that's spread over the next 75 or 100 years.  big scary numbers for sure, but not as scary as you make it sound.  

No argument- we need better financial management.  Keep in mind that the GOP, although they fought it tooth and nail at the time, is behind fully funding medicare and not taking a dime away from it- because they know their base is a bunch of old white people that are all getting SS and Medicare.  I'd probably vote for a republican that was sensible in this regard, but the party is beholden to the tin-foil hat wearing, climate denying, birther, tea party, anti-gay, anti-science, Leviticus preaching right wing.

lol, but how do you really feel?

I can only hope that I can be as tolerant and non-prejudicial as you some day. 

We can all hope for that. 

You know not what you speak. I've been a registered republican since I've been 18, and voted for many of them- some recently.

I'm not real happy with my party these days.  Are you?  Can I be a fiscal conservative, but still believe that we can raise taxes a little if we also cut spending?  Can I be a conservative, and believe that gay people should be able to get married, that the earth is really 4.5B years old, and that Obama really was born in Hawaii, and that the CO2 we're putting in the atmosphere really IS affecting the climate?  Can I be a conservative, and support the kind of healthcare plan that was thought up by the Heritage foundation, pushed by Bob Dole through the 90's, Implemented by Mitt Romney, supported (and heavily lobbied for) by health insurance companies, and has been the stalwart conservative response to the single payer plans that the progressives have always wanted?  

Perhaps not, as what 'conservatives' stand for these day, isn't the same as it used to be.  

yeah- I was doing some good ribbing there on the GOP.  they deserve it.  

There ARE these kinds of conservatives out there.  Sadly, I think it's just you and me.  *clinks glass* (I've never registered with a party, however.)

Obviously you can define conservatism however you want, but I tend to support the description provided by Wikipedia about fiscal conservatism.

Fiscal conservatism is a politicoeconomic philosophy with regards towards fiscal policy and the advocating of fiscal responsibility. Fiscal conservatives advocate and often consider avoiding deficit spending and the reduction of overall government spending and national debt as well as ensuring balanced budget of paramount importance. Fiscal conservatives would also support pay-as-you-gofinancial policies. Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and other conservative policies are also often, but not necessarily, affiliated with fiscal conservatism

Fiscal conservatism has absolutely nothing to do with social policy so I'm not even sure why you went there other than to just bash people.  Same with science, I don't recall anyone raising or lowering the deficit because they believed the earth was or wasn't 4.5 Billion years old.

Raising taxes and cutting spending is fiscally conservative, so I'm with you there.  Live within our means. (Can i get a flat tax?)  

As for healthcare, there's nothing wrong with supporting healthcare for others, but there is no way on earth a fiscal conservative can support the ACA.  It is the complete opposite of fiscal conservatism in every way possible, so you're dead wrong in that regard.  Just because somebody with an R behind their name at some point in time supported one idea or an other does not make it a fiscal conservative idea.  GWB did TARP and it's one of the biggest examples ever of how not to be fiscally conservative.

So, I'm also with you that the GOP needs some ribbing because they are a mess.  I'll also say the Democrats are equally a mess.  The political system on both sides of the isle is a complete disaster for we the people.  The last thing I want is for the Republicans to be more like the Democrats or vis versa.  I want them both to be more like "we the people".

Because the "far right" has taken pains, it seems, to conflate these issues.  Or rather, to scream loudly any time someone even comes near one of their pet issues, most of which are "social." 

And since the far right of the Republican party has gained enough of a minority inertia (if you will) ...  even a moderate republican will dare not mention that he might not support these "social" ideas for fear of getting "run out" in the primaries.

You can probably count on one hand the number of fiscal conservatives in Congress that are NOT Fundamentalist Christian and/or followers of the "Prosperity Gospel."   Don't get me wrong, I am 100%  OK with people believing these things.   I am 100% NOT OK with being governed by those principles.

The GOP is a combination of fiscal conservatives and social conservatives.  For the most part, it's the social conservative portion that I have a really difficult time with.  And, also the hypocrisy.  One way to look at the cause of our massive deficit is two unfunded wars and a huge tax cut.  Toss in the economic collapse and it went pyrotechnic.  Our deficit isn't due to too much spending on food stamps and education..

thing is- the GOP seems staunchly in support of the worst of the social conservative measures, yet doesn't really act like fiscal conservatives when they're in power.  

I agree with both of you guys.  I have done a lot of pondering/thinking on the social issues side.  I think the majority of Americans can come to an agreement on fiscal conservatism, because it just makes sense.  Run your house on a budget, run your government on a budget.  Duh

It's when we get into the the social issues on both sides that everybody gets hostile towards each other.  I think the issue is more on the authoritarian nature of politicians when it comes to these issues and both sides are guilty of that.  I have come to the belief that a Libertarian style government is what we really need and has a much better chance of succeeding.

If we just keep going back and forth between R's forcing their social issues and D's forcing their social issues it will never get better.

yeah, medicare, social security, federal pensions... big unfunded liabilities- but that's spread over the next 75 or 100 years.  big scary numbers for sure, but not as scary as you make it sound.  

No argument- we need better financial management.  Keep in mind that the GOP, although they fought it tooth and nail at the time, is behind fully funding medicare and not taking a dime away from it- because they know their base is a bunch of old white people that are all getting SS and Medicare.  I'd probably vote for a republican that was sensible in this regard, but the party is beholden to the tin-foil hat wearing, climate denying, birther, tea party, anti-gay, anti-science, Leviticus preaching right wing.

I like this thread.  It's thoughtful without name calling.

That's all I got.  Carry On........