Training with power question, basic but nagging.

This is a little bit dated but gives some good info on training with power:

http://velodynamics2.webs.com/rcgtp1.pdf

Shane

Great link, but it reminds me why I hired a coach.

You can either increase your wattage by increasing your cadence, or increasing your resistance, or both. For example, it is possible to generate 200 watts by either spinning really fast @ an easy resistance, or by pushing a large resistance at a lower cadence.

A watt is a watt (though not all are created equal, but thats another story). You are either creating the watts, or you aren't. Its not as variable as HR. RPE is RPE. Heat, humidity, being hungover, being sick, etc are not going to affect those watts, just how YOU create those watts, bringing me back to the either you are creating those watts or your aren't. That is why I like using power so much. It eliminates all of those variables. Wind, I have found, can mess around with wattage, especially a tail wind, but it is much more minor compared to using HR.

I use power to limit myself during races, especially longer ones. During my HIM races this year, I used that wattage # to keep me from going too hard, setting me up for a good run. During one race I didn't listen to my wattage (went too hard), and I paid dearly for it on the run. My final race I stuck that wattage and I had one of the best runs of my life.

Here is a great book on training with power, Andrew Coggan's Training and Racing with a Power Meter

My quick understanding as a power beginner...

Yes, if you can increase power at the same HR or RPE that is good, however HR and RPE are variable depending on many conditions. Temperature, terrain, wind, exhaustion, mental, fatigue, etc... Power out is always power out. Sure 200 Watts may be fast on a given road or slower on a hilly windy road but 200W is still 200W no matter what your heart rate says. Power gives you something you can measure that is more directly correlated to speed than other measurable factors.

As for going out and hitting particular wattages, in general (in a well designed training program) you can go out and hit your designed wattages no matter what your HR or RPE are telling you. Maybe you'll have a really hot and humid day that makes HR a limiting factor but in my limited experience if the program and the meter say I have more to give I generally do. As you note, your RPE may be telling you otherwise but RPE can lie. The power meter measures work your muscles are actually delivering.

I have a couple extra minutes so will try to address your questions.  Power and RPE should be fairly closely tied but HR is a lagging indicator and is affected by many things beyond the work that you are doing to move the bike forward.  I like how Andrew Coggan sums it up best, who says something to the effect of if you know power, HR is at best redundant.



Power is simply a measure of the rate at which you are doing work; do more work in a given time and you have a higher power; do less and you have a lower power.  HR (as can be seen from the graphs posted in a thread here) can increase while power decreases and can also be influenced by many other factors (hydration, heat, humidity, recovery, etc).



You are correct, there will be days that you just can't produce the watts you are targeting; this can help give insight into level of recovery and if you aren't able to hit your given power, may be a good day to call it quits early and get ready for the next session.



Since I've started training with power, I find that my RPE is mostly right on (except at the beginning of races, the base of a climb, cresting a climb or riding with head/tailwind).  However, I've stopped monitoring HR as it was all over the place on many occasions and it didn't affect my ability to keep pushing.  As well, the power meter has helped me on days I didn't feel good; getting out the door was a struggle but once I got going was hitting my power numbers so kept going with the workout.

Shane

I understand what you are getting at...  But my response:

Ok, you limit your power in a race or training...  And I understand a watt is a watt and can't be as influenced by outside conditions...  or can it?

BUT, can't there be days/race that you think you can crank out 200 watts but just can't?  Illness, heat, fatigue, dehyrdation, nutrition.  Are those not the same outside factors that can impact power, as well as RPE or HR? 

Or can you hit 200 watts no matter what?

ETA:  the previous post answered some of this.  It snuck in on me.

Edited by Kido 2010-09-15 1:07 PM

Triathlete's Guide to Training with Power - by Dr. Skiba http://physfarm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=20.   He is VERY good at explaining the concept of training with power for all three sports - s/b/r.  He then tells you how to use that to pwn everyone else.  If you want to understand how training affects your body and how it makes it faster and slower, this is really the book.  Other stuff will cover the how (google searches will do this, lots of stuff on training peaks from Coggan), but he covers both the how and why (I'm just as interested in the why question, but I know some people don't care much about that).


Edited by jsiegs 2010-09-15 1:12 PM

Most have hit on the basics, but the bottom line is power is power. No matter what the terrain, no matter what the weather or wind, no matter how you're feeling, you know you're doing the workout you need to be doing.

Here's a running comparison: I've found McMillan's running calculator to be pretty accurate, so I go out and run a 10k to establish paces for different types of runs that I need to do while training for a half marathon. I've got cruise paces, tempo paces, speed paces, and my goal pace. Those are basically the equivalent of the zones that most people use for power-based training. Now, if I have a interval workout to do, I go to the track and I know that regardless of what the weather is like or how I'm feeling, I should be hitting specific paces based on that workout. I can certainly choose not to hit those paces if I'm not feeling good or it's really hot, but I'll know that I'm not getting the workout I should be. I won't make the mistake of thinking I'm hitting the paces I'm supposed to be just because of RPE or HR.

Power works the same way. You establish what your functional threshold power is and base your zones on that. When you're supposed to go out and do 2x20' at FTP, you'll know that you're maximizing that workout. You'll be surprised how hard it really feels to work at those upper zones at first. You'll also be surprised how quickly you adjust. It doesn't hurt less, you just tolerate it more.

Yeah Shane's reply is a good one.

I was dubious at first about the benefits of power as I thought I had a really good handle on my body via RPE and heart rate. I took the expensive leap of faith and was amazed at how inconsistent my riding was. I spent a ton of energy hammering up hills (when I swore I wasn't) and wasted a ton of free speed essentially coasting down hills when I had more watts to give.

Also, your avatar scares me...

You are sort of making this more complicated than it is.


In very basic terms, a power meter is telling you exactly what you are doing at any given moment work wise.

HR is telling you what you body is doing to an extent

RPE is your mind trying to tell you what it thinks is going on.


The PM is really just a very accurate work load computer.

Being tired, sore, hungover, sick, etc still effect how much power you can put it, it is just telling you what those numbers are vs you guessing how hard you are really going.

It is wildly useful in tracking trends over time (a good messure for progress and finding out how your body responds to workouts), and this lets you start to see how sleep/rest/training load effect your day to day workouts.

it gives a MUCH more accurate way of testing that takes a lot of the varieables out of the equation like speed, wind, road surface, etc.

Some things to look at vs RPE: as a workout goes on, most of us if we try to do a workout at a certain pace will actually slow down over time at the same RPE, the PM will tell you that you are in fact slowing down vs thinking you are going the same speed.

It'll keep you honest and working as hard (or easy) as you need to be.
But you also need to know what ti ignore, or understand what it's telling you.

I think that's the crux of it.  Plus it's more accurate defining your zones (paces).  Along the same lines, power gives a testable benchmark to quantify improvement (or lack thereof).  that last can be a big motivator for a lot of people.

and that right there is another tool telling you, "If I am struggling to hit my wattage, I am probably not recovered or I need to work more on training in these conditions." Of course RPE or simple common sense can probably answer that as well, but at least with power you have an actual physical number telling you this.

Not that I needed much additional selling, but I'm sold...  I think it may be on my B-day/Christmas gift wish list.

Besides, who can't resist gadgets and bling?

Edited by Kido 2010-09-15 1:45 PM

sweet! which method of meter are you going with?

X2. This is the book you want to learn about your PT.

Training w/power will leave you wondering what the hell you were doing before...

wireless PT seems to fit the budget and reliable.  Plus I can use the wheel on different bikes.

plus you can put a cover on it for races...which is what i do....

if you follow a correct plan you will be very happy with a PM....first read the book, 2nd ride for 1 week just to see what its like then take a test the following week and start training....

Question,

Would a PM do much good in the hills? Or does it only really work well on relatively flat courses ( like most Tri courses).

By hills I mean avg of 8-12% grades....where you are almost breaking the handle bars because you are pulling so hard to get the peddles to turn over and going down at 40-50mph not peddling at all.

I'm just thinking there is no way to keep even power through really mountainous hills....could be wrong though.

My understanding is YES.  It measures the force applied to the crank on some models or the rear hub on others.  The crank or hub don't care if you are on a hill in a small gear or on the flats pushing a big gear.  It only feels how much force your are putting out.

Got that....what I was thinking is that there is no way you can put out the same power going up a SUPER steep hill and going down a super steep decent. Once I hit a certain MPH going downhill, I can't peddle fast enough to even do anything.

the thing with power meters, especially the powerTap is that outside on rolling terrain you will notice your wattage suddenly go from 50 watts to 250 watts and back. Its all over the place sometimes! The flatter terrain you get and the steadier you can ride in regards to your cadence, the more steady your wattage will read. You can set your head unit to average the power over 1 sec or 5 secs to flatten those spikes.

Climbing hills that steep will require you to be as fluid as possible if you want a steady power reading. Usually the higher cadence you have the more fluid the reading. That is why I am going to put some larger sized gears onto my rear cassette next year so I can spin more up hills of that caliber.

On a 12 percenter, usually its get to the top no matter what!!

More specifically: SRM and Powertap (also Quarg I think) have strain gauges that measure torque applied at either the crank or the hub.  Sorry... engineer being pedantic I know :P

Actually, power meters are great for hills. The trick is to learn to use it.
Getting a power meter and using it correctly requires a significant knowledge investment. Either plan on reading books like Training and Racing with a power meter (Great Book), Time Crunched Cyclist (decent book on power, great ideas for training), or some of the articles available at training peaks (they have a great power 101 section), or get a coach who knows power.
back to hills...you will see a huge spike in your power when trying to ride up a hill. The trick is to get that spin going and NOT let your power spike. This saves you for later. As was said before, all watts are not created equal. Most power systems now let you review your power after and you can see how spikes in one place may have affected your ride elsewhere.
As to being better than HR...For steady state rides, I think HR is still pretty good. In fact, I still use it to monitor myself, even with my Power meter. However, it isn't as useful for shorter intervals because it does lag effort.
Also, as was stated, your state affects you HR. Your state also affects your ability to reach certain wattage goals, but the item you are measuring is different.
Anyway, if you are willing to invest the time to learn to use the PM, I think it can be a huge benefit.
Enjoy!
 

I've been training with power since '06 had 3 different power taps and now a Quarq.

If you invest the time to understand training with power, and learn to ride well with power it will help you a lot. If you have a coach get one that understands power, will analyze your files and help you learn to execute well.

I see from time to time folks who train and race with power but don't really get how to ride with power and then it becomes a expensive bike computer.

It does to take time to learn to ride steady in various terrains and wind conditions. Riding hills correctly is tough as if you race typically everyone will be passing you and then once you crest the hill, descend or on flats you will pass them back. It takes awhile to keep power steady on hills and it is not how most triathletes ride so it is a skill you need to learn. Just think every time you spike your power on the bike you make your run worse.

Your question about watts on various days ie tired...well if you have a well designed training plan you may feel tired but area able to do your workout. Just thinking back this year, I've hit most of my power goals for my bike workout this year. I struggle a bit doing zone 3 as I avoided it last year and spent maybe hour doing it so it's taking me some time to get comfortable riding in that zone again. Having power goals to hit for intervals for me, makes me push to hit them and is rewarding to know I did what I should..it is very satisfying to ride and race with power as conditions are removed and I can see how I did between races as watts are watts.

I think training with power appeals more to certain type of people..number folks..I'm a number person so it fits with the way I'm wired.

Have fun!