I don't get it

The media plays a big role in the "political process," so to speak, of the TDF.  They certainly exaggerate a lot of the emotion involved and try to foster rivalries between teams.  Lance even light-heartedly mentioned the media's influence in his supposed feud with Contador early in the season, implying that there wasn't nearly the tension between the two that, due to the media, people thought. 

I'm in a similar boat as you-- this is the first time I've ever really paid attention to the TDF.  But, what I've deduced is that there is A LOT of etiquette involved in the TDF, which I attribute to the fact that its a European tour.  Certain teams, the stronger ones usually, are expected to step up and bear the grunt of the work; certain cyclists are expected to always be at the front; etc etc.  When expectations are not met, the media harps on it, creating a big pseudo-poltical atmosphere...

Also, there are only 200 riders in a 3.5 week tour.  At least 10% will not finish the tour.  The length of the tour and the size of the group fosters friendships, alliances, nemeses, etc....

Generally, there is just A LOT of emotion involved in the TDF.  These guys train their entire lives in hopes of adorning themselves with a jersey, or even just a stage win.




Edited by jss8422 2009-07-20 9:54 AM

Taking the easy way out? That's ok; half the time I don't know what you're trying to say. Must be the accent

...and another thing; what's with the timing? Some riders get their actual time, others get a group time?

OK, Hwere to start...

First. There is an overall winner of the TdF. Over the years they have added other categories: Best young rider, Best climber, best sprinter, etc. Each provides exposure to riders with specific abilities. In years when the winner was clear early on the race for the green jersey has provided a lot of excitement.

There is a winning team in addition to the individual winner. Team tactic are what most people miss when they watch the tour. They only really notice it during the TTT.

Second. Times. Their are a lot of rules. For example, in the TTT, the team gets the time of the fifth rider to finish. When the peleton finishes everyone in the peleton gets that time. What riders can and can't do is determined by how close to the finish they are. Radio communications with their team cease near the end.

Third. There is a lot of etiquette. Examples: When Lance crashed in the yellow years ago Ulrich made the peleton slow down and wait to see if he was ok, and if so let him rejoin. Lance returned the favor in a later TdF when Jan rode off the rode. The entire field has ridden together in protests and in tributes to fallen riders.

As I said this is complicated. I am sure there are books on the subject. I am 48 and a former road racer. I was racing in the 70's and early 80's when Lemond emerged. I remember the controversy when Bernard Henault (sic) was his teammate and Greg was the stronger rider. Greg was made to be a domestique so Bernard could win his 5th Tour. At the time I thought is sucked, but that is the politics of the Tour.

BTW: You canot believe what the press is writing. A lot of what the teams say and do is misdirection.

Doug

Also,

Each team for the most part has a leader.  That leader can change if someone on the team has a really good day and the leader doesn't which opens up a huge time gap.

The other riders on a team normally "work" for that leader especially if the leader is good enough to be a GC contender.  Contador, Armstrong, Evans, Menchov, Sastre, Basso/Pelozotti, etc.  The others are well paid to keep that guy in the race by dragging him over the mountains, and back up through the Peloton if need be.  That is one thing that motivates them to do that.  You saw Kloden yesterday pull Armstrong up the mountain where Kloden could have dropped Armstrong and made up more time.  Kloden is paid well to take care of Lance.

Teams like Columbia that don't have a GC contender don't always work for someone except usually in the case of Cavendish they will work to make sure that he is up there for the sprint and give him a good leadout so he can sprint for the win.   Teams without a GC contender or even a good sprinter usually seem to be on their own to get into breakaways to get their sponsor some TV time.  If that team without a contender happens to get someone in contention you will see the rest of the team work for that guy.

LOL, it is kind of complicated but once you get it, it really makes sense.

Thanks. It's starting to make more sense. I think.

About the sprint; is it all relative to each "group" (lead pack, chase, peloton)? That still leaves me scratching my head. For example, there are 3 riders who get out in front of everyone, and 2 of them sprint to the finish and that winner is the stage winner. Does he get sprint points too. Same stage has, let's say, 12 riders in the chase group. They come to the finish and 4 of them haul butt and sprint over the line. Winner of that sprint get points too? Then comes the peloton, and a couple of guys sprint out in front of that group. They get sprint points too? When is a sprint not a sprint?

Same scenario and questions apply to mountain climbs.

Seem like riders can get points for being the "first" relative to the group they are with. Hopefully first overall gets more points

No each group does not get Sprint points. There are a specific number of places that get points in decrease amounts, first getting the most. There are intermediate sprints and the same holds true. So if there are 5 places, the 6th rider gets no points and no one after him gets them either. There used to be time bonuses awarded, but not in this years TdF.

Sprint points are as follows: 35-30-26-24-22-20-19-18-17-...1. Basically the first 25 riders to cross the finish get points. If you're the 26th placed rider in the stage you get no points. In your example, the first three riders would get 35-30-26. Your next twelve riders would get 24-22-20-19-18-...11. The first ten riders in the peloton that cross the finish would get 10-9-8-...1.

How is it we both thought exactly the same thing from the original post??

Great info folks. Thanks! The places/points stuff makes sense, as does some things like the white jersey, but the etiquette stuff I may never get used to. I can understand it more within a team, but between teams?

I gathered the other day that the Garmin team somehow did something that prevented a Columbia rider from winning the stage. I still don't know what was done that was "wrong". But, why should Astana care what Gamin did to the Columbia rider?

George Hincapie is the only rider to support Lance in his seven TdF wins. He is a classy guy and respected by virtually everyone in the sport. He is not a real threat to win the GC. He now rides for Columbia and would have won the yellow jersey, but for Garmin and then his own team pulling the Peleton back too much. He lost out by 2 seconds (I think). A day in the yellow at hus age would have been a great reward. His own team was stupid to try to get Canadish some sprint points when he is already behind Thor and was not going to make up enough if any points. So a good guy got screwed for no good reason.

Let's take this one step further...George blamed Astana and Columbia for keeping him out of yellow. Depending on your perspective, you could come to that conclusion, especially in the heat of battle.  There were four contributing factors:

First, Astana pulled once George's break was up to 8 minutes. I think Astana was comfortable with George in Yellow, but not by 3 minutes. So when AG2R didn't come to the front to protect Nocentini in yellow, they did some work to keep the break from extending. It would have made a very different race if Hincapie had 5min going into the mountains (e.g., Mick Rogers starts riding in support of George and they've got the yellow AND a strong team). Astana weren't willing to let that happen. And once AG2R started working, Astana faded back into the peleton.

Second, AG2R pulled for their guy in Yellow, Nocentini. No surprise there.

Third, Garmin helped AG2R pull for a while, until Columbia decided they wanted to lead cavendish out. There's been well documented bad blood between Garmin and Columbia - see Cavendish's remarks from the spring. Bottom line...they don't like each other. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that J. Vaughters had ordered Garmin to the front to prevent Columbia getting yellow, especially since Cavendish has pipped Tyler Ferrar, including a recent sprint where there was some dodgy riding blocking the Julian Dean leadout of Ferrar, and

Last, there weren't too many points available for the sprint (green jersey) competition...yet George's own team led out Cavendish to protect the green jersey. Even if Cav loses to Thor by 3 places, it's only 3 points after that many points have been already captured in the sprint competition...so it's a guarantee that Columbia's own effort kept George from yellow....but of course, he can't blame his own team...soooo....

OK, so George knew he had a chance at the Yellow.... What I don't understand is:

At the end of the stage, why didn't he just ride it like a "full-speed-ahead" time trial?

Yes, he'd have dragged the others to the line, and they'd probably have sprinted past him at the end. But that might have been the price he needed to pay to in order to GAIN TIME, which was the only way he was going to get the Yellow.

I think that if Hincapie had just GONE, (and pulled the others,) he might have ended up with a few more seconds in his favor.... And, who knows, maybe that might have been enough for him to grab the yellow.....

Also, TBH I don't think Garmin and Columbia would be considered friends, Cav did some trash talking about Garmin at the Giro and really if there are 2 american teams and you are Garmin would you want Columbia to get that extra exposure that having an American in the yellow would bring. 

I honestly like the rivalry.  Sometimes these guys get so wrapped up in the etiquette they seem to forget there is a race going on.

There is that also, Hincape was messing around at one point trying for the stage win also. 

Finally I don't think he had any gas left to do much.  As Bruyneel said in an interview yesterday you can always look back and think of any number of ways you could have shaved 5 seconds off your time in a 4 hr race...

I like to think it of almost as if there are 6 different races occurring, within the framework of the TdF:

Yellow jersey - Fastest overall time. The winner of this needs to be able to ride fast, no matter what the terrain. (Mountains, TT's, sprints, etc.)

White jersey - Similar to the Yellow, but for the younger (under 25) competitors.

Green jersey - Sprinters gain points, as explained above. (But these guys are NOT in contention for the Yellow/White, since they often can't go fast over mountains.)

Polka Dot jersey / "King of the Mountain" - They gain points for going over hills. (But they are not in contention for the Yellow/White since they may not do things like TT well. And they're not in contention for the Green because they're not sprinters.)

Stage wins - Fastest time of the day. The winner could be a contender for the yellow/green/white/polka dot jerseys who gets to the finish line first -- OR someone who managed to get into a breakaway and was strong at the end. (There's a football saying, "On any given Sunday, anyone can win." This is why so many guys try to get into the breakaways. ), etc...

Team competition - Combined times of the 3 highest place riders on each team. (I think it's 3. Someone will correct me if it's not!) The team winning this will wear yellow race numbers.

I just looked up the Team Competition to see if they're close. Yep, they are:

5. TEAM COLUMBIA - HTC 188h 25' 38" + 02' 49"
6. GARMIN - SLIPSTREAM 188h 28' 28" + 05' 39"

I agree. If he had TT'ed, he would have gained more time.  ETA: Maybe not...one guy pulling is much less effective than a group IF the group is working. Maybe he thought the group would work, only because someone needed the stage win. After the russian went up the road, AND he discovered (which took a few K's) that the remainder couldn't / wouldn't work, THEN he could have TT'ed.

But three reasons I can come up with as to why he didn't: 1) he was out of gas, 2) he never thought his own team would lead out and he had a comfortable margin, or less likely, 3) he was trying to save something to support Mick in the mountains tomorrow. That seems rediculous as they had a rest day today, but you never know.

Edited by rkreuser 2009-07-20 7:40 PM