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Power?
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 2010-02-24 9:55 AM |
Elite  3088    Austin, TX Gold member |  Subject: Power?Just wondering how the ability to record power was coming along. I've always just included it in the workout notes and can keep doing that, of course. But it'd be sweet if I could graph it. |
| 2010-02-24 10:22 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
Champion 13323  | Subject: RE: Power? Let's start a discussion with all of the power users to see what needs to be logged. I previously have had a discussion with coredump on some critical power logging metrics. I assume none of these metrics need to be gotten to by a calculation, its the number that is spit out by your powermeter program. Are these metrics a good start? Should there be others? Does something not make sense? LOG:
How would you like this data reported in the blog, calendar, month view? Of course these logged items would need to be what powermeters spit out for when we possibly do device uploading. |
| 2010-02-24 11:58 AM in reply to: #2690561 |
Elite 3088 Austin, TX Gold member | Subject: RE: Power? Great idea, Ron. Here are my comments: I'm going to be pretty easy to please at a basic level. Fields for AP, NP, TSS, and IF. Related thought: Any issues with using NP, TSS, and IF? I seem to remember those are trademarked terms of Training Peaks. Not sure what to do about FTP. You're not going to do FTP tests every ride, so a field for it next to AP, NP, TSS, etc, would just be a waste of space. It's important, of course. Cycling Peaks has it as an input field on the rider's profile. It only holds a single value and can't be tracked over time. That's fine with me. I don't have much of a desire to be able to graph changes in my FTP. I don't have trouble figuring out if it's going up or down! Curious what others think. Graphs that flow like the current ones would work for me. I don't see much of a need for peak power increments for a ride or getting fancy on anything else. Since I have to import the ride into CP anyway, I'll just use it if I want to get those nitty gritty details. On the other hand (time to ask for the moon), if I could import the ride directly from my Garmin and skip CP entirely....well then I'd want to see that peak increment info along with graphs of power, HR, speed, etc, for the ride, the ability to highlight a portion of the ride and get AP, NP, speed, etc for that portion, and so on. Basically, all the things you can do with ride file in CP. That's not asking for much is it.  |
| 2010-02-24 12:21 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
Expert 1049 Burnaby, BC | Subject: RE: Power? I'd love to see power added in to BT. For me, the critical numbers are NP and TSS. Both of these are calculated numbers for most power meters. I believe the Saris Joule, iBike and Ergomo provide these numbers on the head unit, but the older stuff only provides the direct measurements. If you start to log TSS for cycling I'd want rTSS for running as well. Swimming is not as important and I'd imagine most people don't record their lap times. I think really what I want is a Performance Manager. |
| 2010-02-24 12:38 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
Expert 1099 Bedford, NH | Subject: RE: Power? I'm new to power, got mine about two months ago so I don't really have too many demands. The ones you listed in your list looked pretty good to me Ron. It would be really great if you did make it possible to log power data. |
| 2010-02-24 2:50 PM in reply to: #2690956 |
Extreme Veteran 482 | Subject: RE: Power? hockeyhands - 2010-02-24 1:38 PM I'm new to power, got mine about two months ago so I don't really have too many demands. The ones you listed in your list looked pretty good to me Ron. It would be really great if you did make it possible to log power data. x2 on this Ron. I too am still fairly new to using my ibike pro and I think what you have listed is pretty comprehensive for my needs. Thank you for asking! |
 2010-02-24 3:07 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2010-02-24 3:16 PM in reply to: #2691466 |
| Champion 13323 | Subject: RE: Power? Here's one thing I want to understand better. If you are training with power you are probably using WKO for analysis or perhaps the power software that comes with the unit. SO how would having a few key metrics and graphs like those mentioned enhance your log here if you have to view it in WKO, etc anyway? You are still dual logging in the end correct? Just want to better understand what and why you would do it so that we can better implement it and build upon it. |
| 2010-02-24 4:14 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Expert 1049 Burnaby, BC | Subject: RE: Power? For me, having a Performance Manager chart that is aware of my actual performance on race day in each of the disciplines would be important. I'm stuck with WKO+ because it is the gold standard for cycling power, but I'm starting to really like RaceDay because it actually understands all 3 disciplines and shows me actual performance compared to CTL, ATL, and TSB. I would really like to get away from the licensing scheme used by WKO+ and having the performance manager locked to one or two PCs. |
| 2010-02-24 4:58 PM in reply to: #2691485 |
| Elite 3088 Austin, TX Gold member | Subject: RE: Power? Ron - 2010-02-24 3:16 PM If you are training with power you are probably using WKO for analysis or perhaps the power software that comes with the unit. SO how would having a few key metrics and graphs like those mentioned enhance your log here if you have to view it in WKO, etc anyway? That's the essence of my post. AP, NP, IF, TSS, and FTP will enhance my log here because I don't have to go back to WKO to do the analysis. Other than when first importing the ride and viewing variability, max speeds, power during intervals, etc, I very rarely go back and look at individual rides in WKO. The metrics listed and the trends are what I go look at. It would definitely duplicate a lot of the functionality that's available with WKO, but I'd rather have as much of it in one place as possible. All my other training is here. I create and enter my planned training here. Give me a way to import and analyze the individual ride data and I wouldn't even need WKO. My caveat to all of the above is that I almost certainly don't use WKO to its fullest potential and some of the others probably do. |
| 2010-02-24 7:37 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
Champion 19812 MA | Subject: RE: Power? I upload it to WKO+ but I look at my BT logs mostly to see what I did in years past and I do that quite often. Having all my data in one place would be much nicer. I see my BT blog as my training record and it's incomplete without power. My WKO+ only has my cycling workouts so it is even more incomplete. I'd like to have it all in one spot. I've logged my workouts in BT regularly for over 5 years now..the history is pretty cool feature to go back and look. |
| 2010-02-24 8:57 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Champion 6046 New York, NY | Subject: RE: Power? Agree with Kathy. plus if the data is here, I can see how my power is being affected by other workouts....cannot do that in wko |
| 2010-02-24 9:11 PM in reply to: #2692020 |
| Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Power? TriToy - 2010-02-24 9:57 PM Agree with Kathy. plus if the data is here, I can see how my power is being affected by other workouts....cannot do that in wko x3 (or whatever) Having an easy way to log power on here would be a godsend. |
| 2010-02-24 9:48 PM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Master 1826 | Subject: RE: Power? I currently use WKO and here.. here is more for writing about the workout, pace, distance etc.. I use WKO for receiving power data, and HR/pace in runs, I track my CTL/ATL/TSB along with TSS for each workout. Power would be a nice added piece for the bike here.. The things I care about are overall Average Power, Normalized Power, TSS/If, and VI. I think a unique feature was if you could put in intervals so they would show up like lap data but would include duration, AP, NP, If, avg HR, max HR, and VI (but not necessarily since I can calculate it from AP and NP) |
| 2010-02-25 7:29 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Expert 1706 NoVA | Subject: RE: Power? OK another WKO+ user here----BUT I definitely dual log. I have all my "detailed" power data in WKO+ but then still log the "basics" here---I'll input work, TSS/IF, NP, AP and VI (helps me remember what type of ride--steady vs. interval type). I love having my power info here since this is my PRIMARY logging location and I can have all my historical data for all sports in one place...so I guess what I'm looking for is at least the base metrics mentioned above by Ron and the others....thanks for trying to get this going!!! |
| 2010-02-25 7:59 AM in reply to: #2690561 |
| Extreme Veteran 669 Olathe, Kansas | Subject: RE: Power? Ron - 2010-02-24 10:22 AM Let's start a discussion with all of the power users to see what needs to be logged. I previously have had a discussion with coredump on some critical power logging metrics. I assume none of these metrics need to be gotten to by a calculation, its the number that is spit out by your powermeter program. Are these metrics a good start? Should there be others? Does something not make sense? LOG:
How would you like this data reported in the blog, calendar, month view? Of course these logged items would need to be what powermeters spit out for when we possibly do device uploading. These are all great suggestions. I would only add capability to download various devices Edge 500,605, 705.........This would be awesome. I don't know what your sites limitations are technology wise, but RaceDay and WKO can serve as a reference what is relevant in power logging and analysis. |
| 2010-02-25 8:30 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Champion 5529 Nashville, TN | Subject: RE: Power? I would like to see power added to the race reports. IMO, that is where you would get the most bang for your buck. I think it would be interesting to compare my sprint races and see what % of FTP I raced at. |
| 2010-02-25 9:15 AM in reply to: #2692522 |
| Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Power? ADollar79 - 2010-02-25 9:30 AM I would like to see power added to the race reports. IMO, that is where you would get the most bang for your buck. I think it would be interesting to compare my sprint races and see what % of FTP I raced at. hey I like that too! Didn't even think of that. +1 |
| 2010-02-25 9:22 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Power? Ideally, it would be great to be able to log all of the power metrics here, but even if we could, I would still continue to use the Power Agent software and RaceDay. So even if we just had the ability to log simple metrics(ave, max, torque, cadence), I would like having that data in my BT logs. We have one of the better interfaces for logging workouts and that would kick it up one more knotch! |
| 2010-02-25 9:24 AM in reply to: #2692636 |
| Champion 13323 | Subject: RE: Power? How many of you use the Garmin as your head unit to collect the power data? Obviously since we are already collecting Garmin data a direct upload to include power data would make it that much easier via the Garmin than doing new code for each power device. Then it all comes down to just processing the data on our end. So who and who doesn't use a Garmin to collect the power data? Tell us your setup. |
| 2010-02-25 9:31 AM in reply to: #2692666 |
| Elite 4235 Spring, TX | Subject: RE: Power? Ron - 2010-02-25 9:24 AM How many of you use the Garmin as your head unit to collect the power data? Obviously since we are already collecting Garmin data a direct upload to include power data would make it that much easier via the Garmin than doing new code for each power device. Then it all comes down to just processing the data on our end. So who and who doesn't use a Garmin to collect the power data? Tell us your setup. I'm using the PowerTap head unit. As long as I can upload the file, I'm okay if I can't download straight from the device. |
| 2010-02-25 9:31 AM in reply to: #2692666 |
| Elite 3088 Austin, TX Gold member | Subject: RE: Power? Quarq Cinqo and Garmin 705. |
| 2010-02-25 9:34 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: Power? I'd be suprised if you're able to use any of the WKO methodologies. They protect their content and trademarks. Most of the work is protected by Trainingpeaks. You'd probably find it easier to move to RaceDay terms/calcs. Golden Cheetah uses Bike Score etc. Power in the logs would have limited use to me unless you're able to develop rTSS and sTSS as well. If you're able to incorporate the PMC charts to include rTSS and sTSS that would be of value to me. CTL/ATL would be of little use to me without the ability to add the stress from running and swimming. I would enjoy the ability to track W/Kg at various power levels over time. As an example my w/kg at 5min Power, 20 min power, and LT. That is just simply math and would be easy to incorp, or rather easier to incorp. |
| 2010-02-25 9:50 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Expert 1049 Burnaby, BC | Subject: RE: Power? I still use a wired PowerTap. If you choose to support power from the Garmins, be prepared for a much larger data upload as power data should be recorded with 1 second recording on the Garmin. I believe the Edge 500 and the 310XT do this automatically, but the 705 still defaults to so called "smart" recording. The NP algorithm cannot handle the variable low sample rate "smart" recording produces. The algorithms for NP, TSS, IF, VI, CTL, ATL, and TSB are all published in the public domain and free for all to use. The terms NP and TSS belong to PeaksWare, LLC and you would need to work with them to get permission. The equivalents from Dr. Skiba are also Trademarked and would require his permission for commercial use. I think this is where power will fail to get a foothold because there are no standardized terms that the community can use without having to get a licence from the owner. |
| 2010-02-25 10:26 AM in reply to: #2690477 |
| Champion 7136 Knoxville area | Subject: RE: Power? still use the PT head unit as well |
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