California shooting......

I had left work about 10 minutes prior to it happening.  I got the call on my way home and raced back.  It ended very quickly.....one of the victims was a Police officer who encountered the killer on his way into the City Hall.  The officer, miraculously , heroically, was able to push his emergency button in the moments during which he was killed.  Officers were responding to that area when people began running out of City Hall.  Responding officers killed the suspect within one minute of the first shot being fired....7 people were already dead.

I can tell you, when I got the call that there had been a shooting at our city hall I actually asked if it was XXXXX......  Nobody knew, but when I got there 10 minutes later we did.  It was.  As I have looked back, I have often wondered how I missed the signs.  It's haunting.  But I have been able to let it go by rationalizing that there is NO WAY you can figure someone will do that.  Almost nobody does, despite the fact that we see it in the news all the time.  Still, I got there before the bodies were moved, and the images of my co-workers lying murdered is burned into my brain.....and I knew who did it before I got there.

I have seen quite a bit of death......hundreds and hundreds.  My advice to people who went through that experience, who have not seen as much as me, has always been, "move on, don't try to figure it out, you can't." 

With the publication of Rodger's motive, I have began to question that (a small bit).....maybe we can figure it out.  Maybe we should try to identify people who have lasting issues with any certain entity.  Surely Rodger's therapist knew of his feeling of being slighted by women.  I surely knew of XXXXX's hatred for the people who he perceived as slighting him.  I think it may be at least SOME way forward as we look to minimize these mass killings. 

Just thinking out loud really.

Lots of thoughts.  But one that struck me first and still lingers...

I have seen tons and tons of pictures of the perpetrator.  Seen his videos, his face on the internet.  All of this all without trying to even look for it - it's just pushed in front of my face.

But I can't recall seeing pictures of ANY of the victims.  I guess the media likes to show the face of evil, and I guess it's the news.  The killer is who did the wrong thing and will be remembered.  Everyone killed did nothing but be in the wrong place and the wrong time.  No one will remember them, but everyone will recognize the murderer.  Sad, but I guess that's the way the world works.

Again, I don't think there will ever be a "reason" that makes most peoples say "oh, I get it".  It's just called being unstable/crazy.  We like to look for some kind of reason that will make us understand, but I can't really think of anything that would make get it.  Obviously there could be a trigger, but at the core is just be nutso/sadistic. 

Kido and NXS - my issue is.....can we identify these people?  It appears to me that these acts are YEARS in the making, not a spur of the moment decision.  IF that's the case, and I surely am not trying to imply that I have this figured out......but IF that's the case, and from the two examples I gave it obviously is, how do we proceed? 

One of the problems with these incidents is there is nobody to interview.....almost always the idiot kills themselves or is killed by the Police or some other intervention.  This is a window into at least two of the killer's mindsets.  Can we identify these people before the act?  Should we try?  Is this an opportunity to set up a profile for what could lead to these acts?  If so, how do we make it a part of the problem solving?

I don't disagree with anything either of you wrote, BTW, just looking forward to the next one.

That's the deal.  Should we not worry about whether we think they are capable.......I think in almost every case we would say, "no, they are not capable of THAT", because we can't fathom it....but surely some are.  Do we error on the side of caution and commit these people with longstanding grievances to be evaluated by experts in THIS field?  If not, why.  If so, how?

I don't think you can.  I have a friend take their own life recently.  No one understands why.  Can you look back and see the "signs"?  Maybe.  Things always seem more transparent when looking back.  But people appear to have it worse and don't take their own lives.  Some that have it better, do.  I just don't think the signs are that obvious or tell the tale.  There is something deep in someone's head that makes them do these kinds of things.  I'm not saying we should just give up and not TRY to identify them.  I would just be surprised it can be done.  My only hope (and it could be science fiction), is there really is a genetic identifier for someone who could do mass murder.

AT THE MOMENT, you might think this person (the killer) needs some help or is a little off but is it obvious they are going on a killing spree?  Probably not.  Maybe if they happen to be the only ones that felt that way and it could be a direct correlation...  But I'm sure there are 10's of thousands of people that feel the same way that DON'T go on shooting sprees.

The fact is, killing sprees are rare.  And yes, they are rare, even if people don't think so, tells me it's still just crazy being crazy and there is no true identifier (unless it's SO small, like genetic as mentioned above).  I'm sure there are countless people that feel the same way, maybe even worse, but they either get help, take their own lives, drink/drug themselves to numbness, etc.  Can you identify the thing that makes them want to get guns and kill others?  I doubt it.

It also has to come down to people observing it AND doing something about it.

ALSO, what do you do if people are doing/saying what he did?  Commit them?  Round them up before they did anything?  I simply don't think it's clear cut like that.

Also, to keep it in one post.  I don't subscribe to the "it was so much better back in the day" kind of guy.  That society NOW has an entitled "look at me" attitude causing this kind of stuff.  People have always been driven by ego, always will.  I don't think people are any more self absorbed now than in the past.  The human animal doesn't change that much.  Society and social media did not create the "look at me" attitude, it simple provided a tool for the "look at me" attitude people have to be expressed.  People have gone on killing sprees in the past before all this social media.  In fact, they did it because they felt they are not noticed by ANYONE.  They felt small and insignificant - not like they were the center of the univers.  You think this is the first kid that got angry girls snubbed him?  That it's a society/social media/entitlement created thing?  No way.  This is one in a million kid that got angry he got snubbed by girls that snapped.  I HOPE we could find that one in a million identifier - elaborate/advance psychological screening?  Brain scans? 

I like that you are offering up topics for discussion, but surely you wouldn't advocate rounding up people that have done nothing to anyone other than hold a grudge?  It would be a sad day we round people up for what they COULD do, rather than what they ACTUALLY do.  I would keep that freedom even if it means we let a 1 in 313 million per year chance someone goes on a killing spree.*

*Assuming 1 mass killing a year, by one perpetrator, in a country of  313 million people.

I know it seems like mass killings are an epidemic or on the rise and happen all the time.  But those are the odds we are REALLY talking about.

Besides, think of all the wrongful arrest/detaining/committing lawsuits that could arise.  What would it take?  Just a neighbor saying "That kid over there looks like  he's up to no good?"

Well, I don't know.  I know in the case I am intimately familiar with the person had within days of his "rampage" been denied his final appeal in civil litigation..  I would have liked to have known that.

The "system", as it is set up now, is woefully inadequate to handle these types of people.  There is NO interface between the Police (the ones called to deal with these people, as in the case of Rodgers, which they missed), the civil courts, who have almost NO interface with the police or doctors, and the doctors, who are prohibited from disclosing ANYTHING to anyone due to HIPPA.  It's a perfect storm for letting these folks slip through the cracks and we can do much better as a society. 

One of the things I see repeatedly is us singing affidavits because we have credible information that someone is a danger to themselves or others....that affidavit gets someone committed for a 96 hour evaluation.  It almost NEVER goes 96 hours....it's usually 48 hours or less, the person is prescribed MEDICATION, and released.  There is not even an attempt at seeing what the root of the problem might be.....just medicate and move on.  It's insane.

I'm sorry for the people you knew who were killed, that sucks. 

Your point is a good one, and it fits.  In most of these cases there are people who say, "yeah, him, no kidding".  We can already rule out women....they are apparently not that stupid.  So how do we keep whittling away at this until we can make some identifications based on articulable facts?  It CAN be done, we can absolutely prevent some of this.

But these incidents usually don't contain a "threat " of any kind.  I have no problem attacking someone who is trying to hurt me, and I don't have a problem with anyone else doing the same. 

NXS - we already "identify" people who we can articulate a reason why we think they are a threat to themselves or others.  Part of the problem, from my way of thinking, is that the system is completely broke on the other end.  It's medicate and move them out.....almost nobody gets any real evaluation or treatment.

I'[m not talking about making it easier to involuntarily commit people.....that actually works pretty well.  It's what happens once we get them into the hospital that bothers me.  It's not a stretch to say NOTHING happens.  Make a half-arsed diagnosis, get them some medication, and clear the bed for the next person.

I think there are several issues with all this.  The fact remains that most people even if they have feelings of wanting to do harm, choose not to.  They know the difference between right and wrong.  Then there are those few that go the extra mile and commit these awful acts.  The difference between those in the first group and the second are so small that they probably are undetectable.  

My personal feeling is that there are people that need to be institutionalized.  But we no longer have that option.  There are also people that should be "forced" into counseling, but again that doesn't exist.  I know that at the elementary school my daughter used to go to, the administration had such a hard time getting permission to have children looked at/ assessed, that they started putting them in GT (Gifted and Talented) so that they could have people work/talk with them.  Result was that you had a really screwed up group of kids in GT.

 I agree wiht your first part......but I think the difference between the two groups is bigger than you think it is.  And, it is staritng to look like many of these people have very long standing issues with some group that they perceive as having done them wrong.  The majority of these types of incidents are not "spur of the moment" decisions like many murders.  This is a long held hatred, or perceived injustice.....that seems to be a common denominator.  As such, you can start with looking into how long the issue has simmered.  of course, it's just one component, or commonality, with these incidents.....there are surely others to be looked at.