looking for new fuel - need your opinions

Perpetuem = Rocket Fuel

If you're looking for taste drink a coke, if your looking for performance stick with hammer products.

I know of no other products that contain the same quality whey and complex carbs in their products.

I have never been and am not currently sponsored by Hammer. I just know their stuff works like no other products and the athletes I train that use it also tout the same rhetoric.

Almost all other products on the market have some percentage of simple sugars in them. Hammer has zero...for good reason.

Edited by Steve- 2009-06-24 2:35 PM

Most of the manufacturers do not use simple carbs.  And even if they did, it is not a bad thing.  They are easy to absorb which is good during exercise.

And if you are thinking about needing protein DURING exercise in your drink, there is no real need for them other than perhaps to curtail hunger pangs.

Remember that Hammer's literature is written to promote their product.

is that a pro or a con?

It depends. Do you want to be a rocket?

for pre-mixed drinks the two i have found through a LOT of playing around have been hammers HEED and a drink from a newer? company called Outlast (i think that is the comopany and not the drink).

HEED i like in all flavors.

outlast in vanilla (it has some protein in it, and can be mixed VERY strong, 800 cal in a bottle without too much issue).

perpetuem unless they made a new flavor that tastes better to me, works very well but tastes like a dog biscut.


carbon pro+ your flavor of choice is another good one. that mixed with Nuun or some other sort of electrolyte drink has worked very well for me in the past, and is easy to alter how strong you want the mix.

Protein intake during or just before exercise is not necessarily a good thing, and is probably a hinderance to you. Protein in your stomach is harder to digest/absorb than carbs, and forces extra blood flow to your stomach, as well as your body to expend some energy to digest this. Carb/Protein ratio can/is good for after a race though; the theory is that the little bit of protein will help your body to more fully absorb/use the carbs for recovery.

If you feel you MUST try something with protein in it for during exercise, and you can't handle the Hammer stuff, another shelf option is Accelerade. I've tried a couple of different fluid replacement systems for during exercise, as the standard Gatorade/G2/GE do not sit well on my stomach (reflux is bad in a race), and I can NOT drink any with protein in it - I immediatly get cramps.

If you don't like the standard Gatorade stuff, I can tell you from experience that the Gu2O has been great for me - I'm biased though as I am sponsored by them this year. Nuun is supposed to be a good product for electrolyte replacement, dissolved in water it'll help replace fluids/electrolytes and let you use Gels for fuel. Also Hammer electrolyte capsuls are a good product, and you can drink water and eat gels.

As I said, I'm biased, but the Gu Energy system is great stuff. Gu Gels every 45 minutes, and a water bottle of Gu2O every hour keeps me going. Just for reference, anything less than 90 minutes, I typically don't worry about nutrition as much as I do fluids. Remember that your liver stores about 3500 calories of energy, probably enough for several hours (think of marathoners hitting the wall around 20 miles).

As mentioned earlier in the post, some people like flat Coke. It's got the sugars, some caffine, etc. Most people say that when you start on flat Coke in a race to stick with it, to avoid a caffine crash. I'd suggest this with any of the caffine products - gels, blocks, drinks, etc.

Enough running my mouth, I'll shut up now.

If you get Infinit you can create a mix of sports drink that provides you exactly what you want.

Not exactly ...... it is closer to 1500 - 2000 calories even if you have increased your glycogen stores through proper training.  Elite marathoners are burning about 100 calories per mile (in fact everyone does between 100 - 150 per mile - it is not a time based thing, it is a distance based one).  Assuming proper training of their glycogen system then yes, about 20 miles is what they get out of their stores.

BUT ....... I obviously am a huge proponent of the Gu stuff as well being sponsored by them.  Their stuff really is the best and is a total package if you utilize all their products.

or you can always mix and match stuff like i do.

i tend to carry a mix of Gu gels and hammer gels for llonger races (normally something like Gu orange and hammer espresso) and use on course liquid for my drink.

does the fuel need to come from a drink or can gels cover that for you too? that opens up a WHOLE new area of things to look into.

again though, hammer, and GU both make great products around the board, and there are a lot of smaller companies out there as well with some g ood stuff.

i think the thing you need to decide is, do you want to carry everything you need or have the freedome to pick up whats on course? (i for one tend to pick up on course fuel and not take a lot of my own on the liquid side and just carry the gels i need).

Thanks for the better explanation. Yeah, what he said...

I'm a big fan of Hammer's stuff. For sprints, I drink 4 scoops of Sustained Energy in a 24-oz bottle 3 hours prior (my pre-race "meal"), then water up till race time, and HEED on the bike leg.

For my first Oly I'll probably use more dilute SE on the bike too.

This stuff is so individual, though, that you just need to try some stuff for a couple weeks at a time and see what works for you. And I'm not a coach--I'm just some yahoo with a little more knowledge of physiology than the general population.


Edited by DrPete 2009-06-24 4:20 PM

I love the Hammer stuff and am going to use Perp on my IM. I use HEED on my shorter rides/runs and perp for everything 2 hours and over. It is so easy to use. I make a 3 hour bottle and drink a third every hour. I have used GU in the past also with good results. I have also lived off of the course by using gatorade and had no problems. Good luck.

I thought that for efforts over several hours you needed protein? Is that incorrect? Why have I heard that (totally asking out of curiosity, not to be an a$$).

As far as nutrition goes, I used HEED and Perpetuem last year depending on the distance. This year I can't stand the taste of the HEED that I loved last year so I have been using gu + water or perpetuem and water for longer stuff. I like the taste of perpetuem even when mixed very thick (like 6 scoops in a 24oz bottle)

I like Accelerade.  I know a lot of people don't.  I can understand why - it's kinda milky and I swear I can taste the protein - but I like it, it likes me and that's what matters most.  (I use the orange flavour - I'll drink just about anything if it's orange. *laughing*)

Becuase Accel and Hammer have shoved it down people's throats (figuratively and literally).  There is little scientific rationale behind it.

To go with an "all in one" approach, then as already mentioned, Infinit is a decent solution.  And if someone buys into the protein hype, they can even add it to. 

Again out of curiosity, what do you do for nutrition for 6+ hour efforts?

Surge Workout fuel is awesome. It is the only thing I use for endurance activities. Take 30 minutes before you start. Your legs will fall off before you get fatigued. I love it. I only use it for triathlons.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/product_information/the_3rd_law_of_muscle

Are you asking Daremo, or the general public? I make sure I eat well the week before the 6+ hour effort (HIM?) and will start with gels as soon as I get on the bike (30-45 minutes into the race), and throughout the bike and the run, every 45 minutes. While I am on the bike, I will try to drink a waterbottle of Gu2O every hour. On the run, I drink water, have gels every 45 minutes, and depending on conditions (external - ie. weather, temp, etc. & internal - mental, sweat rate, pain, etc.) I may have electrolyte capsuls fairly regularly - as most races have Gatorade products, and they don't work well for my stomach.

You can pretty much be sure all races have water for you. You can not plan on what kind of other beverages they may have. Train with what you know will be at the race. If you know they have Gatorade Endurance, and it works well for you, then by all means train and race with it. If you've never trained with anything but Accelerade, and they are serving Gatorade, then you are up a creek, or having to carry your own drink on the run. Water is the safest bet for fluids, and nutrition/electrolytes are easy enough to carry on you for the run. Most long races tell you plenty in advance what they will be serving at the aid tables. Just don't try anything new on race day.

Both?

Thanks for the info.

I know for longer adventure races folks eat anything that's put in front of them.
I was a TA captain in one of the later TA's at Primal Quest last year and the Merrell Team walked out eating potato chips with the navigator downing a starbuck's double shot. Granted that was day 4 and I don't think he had slept in at least 36 hours.....
At a certain time cut off I have problems not GI wise but taste wise. For longer backpacking stuff, working at primal quest, etc... calories and variety were what it came down to.
I've never done a full Iron so I wouldn't know, but I'd think eating/drinking one thing over 14 hours would start to drive you mad.

To add to what Rick said; it takes the same amount of work (can be measured as kJ or Kcal) to go certain distance (i.e. 56 miles riding) at the same body weight, what it is going to vary is the work rate (power/pace) which is how fast/hard or not we do that work. Hence if your weight is constant evertime you do the same 56 mile loop your body will do around the same amount of work whether you go super easy (i.e. 60% of your threshold power/pace) or hard (i.e. 90% of your threshold power/pace) although your fueling demands will change on work rate.

With that in mind; knowing we have a limited amount of glycogen store in our liver/skeletal muscles available for fuel affected by training, fitness level, diet (short and long term), temperature, etc. and knowing the amount of carbs vs fat we use depends on our exertion intensity (the harder you exert yourself the more you will rely on glycogen for fuel) then we can estimate our fueling needs based on 1) the distance of a race (how much Kcal we'll need to go certain distance),  2) the intensity at which we plan to race at (how much Kcal are coming from carbs) and 3) The amount of carbs stored in our bodies to begin with.

Also knowing in general our bodies can only process around 1 gram of carbs x minute then it is relativeley simple to estimate on average what most athletes will require for a given session/race. Having a power meter or a GPS can help you get more precise numbers but still unless you know exactly what % of energy comes from carbs/fat given your fitness/diet, etc, instead you can use general guidelines to develop your fueling needs.

Based on the above most athletes can shoot to consume 40-70 gr of carbs (140-280 kcal)  x hour + fluids, the exact ratio can be tested on training and based on that defined optimal fueling needs. Most brands of sports drinks, gels and bars offer a variety of Carbs (simple, complex, mix), other stuff like protein which as said it might or might not help, flavours etc. Try some of the brands and see which one you like best and fits your fuelig needs. (again this is in general and will vary from athlete to athlete)

Finally since with training we seek to maximize certain trainig adaptations like increasing glycogen storage for training/racing which in turn it will allow our bodies to better utilize fat as fuel and this adaptation is maximized training between 80-95% of threshold pace/power then it is hard to understand why some athletes/coaches advocate limiting training to low intensity levels (< 65% fo threshold power/pace) in order to maximizie our bodie's ability to use fat as fuel. There are good reasons to spend time training at lower intensities, but that specific reason is not one of them but thats topic for another thread.

Edited by JorgeM 2009-06-25 8:55 AM

No, you don't need protein as far as anybody knows.  Some people find it useful when exercising for a long time as it can help make you feel more 'full'.  It also causes more GI issues for some people, so they would be much better without.

All you need is carbs and hydration.  It also seems that a mix of simple & complex carbs generally makes it easier for your stomach to empty (keeping everything digesting smoothly when you are exercising for serval hours is really the critical factor in race nutrition).  What this means is that there is a place for drinks like Gatorade even if people like Hammer insist otherwise (not that there is anything wrong with using Hammer products--although my personal opinion was if I were to attempt to design a drink to taste like @ss, I would come up with Heed).

FWIW, in long races I use a mix of gels and drinks for essentially all my calories.  Generally with no protein, although I have used some when it came from the course (Accelerade was the sports drink offered).

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