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HR Zone Question
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 2009-08-04 9:33 PM |
Pro  4827     McKinney, TX |  Subject: HR Zone QuestionPer the BT Oly plan, I did a LT test for the run tonight. 10 minute warmup; 28 min all out, hitting lap after 10 min to obtain HR avg of the last 20 min; 10 cooldown. I ran into traffic at 28min and stopped. What do y'all think? Do these numbers seem realistic? They seem so to me, I just looking for a 2nd (or 3rd) opinion. |
| 2009-08-05 1:26 AM in reply to: #2328555 |
Extreme Veteran 570 | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question 42 year old male here as well and have done a few LT tests . . . is this your first? I can feel for you as it REALLY sucks to blow your guts out in one of those and not have good data (I call them HellT tests). I noticed on your logs in your sprint race a couple of weeks ago your HR was quite a bit lower. Did you push as hard in the race as on your test? Races can be another good way to gauge your LT. You 'should' be able to run a sprint at LT though it is something I've not yet accomplished. Your max numbers are very high compared to mine but that is not relative as HR varies from person to person. However, I'd figure lower than higher for your average because (from everything I've read and been told in by BT coaches), if you are training by zone, and specifically using the D3 plans here on BT, you don't want to overshoot your heart rates. Better to under shoot. Some of the fastest guys I know who train by HR avoid Z3 like the plague unless called for in a training plan. And if you're on a plan you'll just take another LT in a few weeks anyway. A way to cross check is by Perceived Rate of Exertion (PRE) When you are out doing a Z2 run if you can't carry on a conversation while running in what is supposed to be Z2, your numbers are probably a little high. But I would definitely keep it lower than higher or it can defeat the purpose of training by zones. My two cents anyway. |
| 2009-08-05 7:42 AM in reply to: #2328555 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question My HR during the race is somewhat deceiving. I didn't go all out until the last 1/2 mile. I get kinda chit-chatty on the course. |
| 2009-08-05 8:05 AM in reply to: #2329001 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question KenD - 2009-08-05 7:42 AM so was this a field test or a race?My HR during the race is somewhat deceiving. I didn't go all out until the last 1/2 mile. I get kinda chit-chatty on the course. |
| 2009-08-05 8:43 AM in reply to: #2329047 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question JorgeM - 2009-08-05 8:05 AM KenD - 2009-08-05 7:42 AM so was this a field test or a race?My HR during the race is somewhat deceiving. I didn't go all out until the last 1/2 mile. I get kinda chit-chatty on the course. Last night was a field test. I was faster in the field test then in the race and had a higher HR. |
| 2009-08-05 8:48 AM in reply to: #2329135 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question I vote for doing it again,,, just to see you suffer  it's hard to compare,, as an example , If I see just a 170-175 HR I"d freak out,,, since mine doesn't get that high... even doing the windhaven hill repeats in 100+ weather.. I'm exhausted after a few minutes in the 160's . everyone will give you a different opinion but it will be based on their HR,,, |
| 2009-08-05 9:08 AM in reply to: #2329150 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question Gaarryy - 2009-08-05 9:48 AM I vote for doing it again,,, just to see you suffer it's hard to compare,, as an example , If I see just a 170-175 HR I"d freak out,,, since mine doesn't get that high... even doing the windhaven hill repeats in 100+ weather.. I'm exhausted after a few minutes in the 160's . everyone will give you a different opinion but it will be based on their HR,,, x2. Your numbers are on the high end for your age, but definitely within the realm of possibility. If you feel that you did the test properly and HRM was working, then I'd go with those numbers unless something seems to be very very wrong (like you can't maintain Z2 for very long). Retest later. |
| 2009-08-05 9:46 AM in reply to: #2328555 |
Master 1547 | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question I have found these tests to be a bit off, esp when returning to fitness. When I was building run milage I would do an easy effort for 8 miles and get up to 170bpm, now after a few months of 80-120 miles per month I am seeing 150bpm on those same runs. So as your fitness improves your zones could move around. The thing that helped me the most was the old "slow down to get faster" routine, which allowed me to build up the aerobic engine. |
| 2009-08-05 10:42 AM in reply to: #2329135 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question KenD - 2009-08-05 8:43 AM JorgeM - 2009-08-05 8:05 AM KenD - 2009-08-05 7:42 AM so was this a field test or a race?My HR during the race is somewhat deceiving. I didn't go all out until the last 1/2 mile. I get kinda chit-chatty on the course. Last night was a field test. I was faster in the field test then in the race and had a higher HR. gotcha, then if you pushed hard you can guesstimate your HR zones as you did. Just tweak'em as you get to train more and remember HR can be very vairable due to external factors affecting which are not necesserely impacting your working muscles. Hence is RPE to see if you are in the ball park. Did you record distance on your field test by any chance? |
| 2009-08-05 10:48 AM in reply to: #2329452 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question JorgeM - 2009-08-05 10:42 AM gotcha, then if you pushed hard you can guesstimate your HR zones as you did. Just tweak'em as you get to train more and remember HR can be very vairable due to external factors affecting which are not necesserely impacting your working muscles. Hence is RPE to see if you are in the ball park. Did you record distance on your field test by any chance? I mapped out the distance after the run. 3.75 miles in 28 minutes. |
| 2009-08-05 11:01 AM in reply to: #2329474 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question KenD - 2009-08-05 10:48 AM JorgeM - 2009-08-05 10:42 AM gotcha, then if you pushed hard you can guesstimate your HR zones as you did. Just tweak'em as you get to train more and remember HR can be very vairable due to external factors affecting which are not necesserely impacting your working muscles. Hence is RPE to see if you are in the ball park. Did you record distance on your field test by any chance? I mapped out the distance after the run. 3.75 miles in 28 minutes. in that case *if* you have a GPS/polar pedomoter watch you could also instead of training by HR use pace as your way to gauge intensity. It is less variable than HR hence there is not much guessing, you only have to adjust pace sometimes if you leave in a hilly place. Using Daniels' running formula your VDOT would be around 42-43 hence your training paces would be around: Z1 - Easy pace - 9:48 > Z2 - Steady pace - 9:05 to 9:45 Z3 - Marathon pace - 8:25 to 9:00 Z4 - Threshold pace - 7:52 to 8:20 Z5 - VO2 pace - < 7:45 Just a suggestion, IMO it s a more efficient to train at, of course always using RPE as primarily way to make sure you are running at the right intensity given how your body feels on a given day. |
| 2009-08-05 11:15 AM in reply to: #2329518 |
| Pro 4054 yep, | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question JorgeM - 2009-08-05 12:01 PM KenD - 2009-08-05 10:48 AM JorgeM - 2009-08-05 10:42 AM gotcha, then if you pushed hard you can guesstimate your HR zones as you did. Just tweak'em as you get to train more and remember HR can be very vairable due to external factors affecting which are not necesserely impacting your working muscles. Hence is RPE to see if you are in the ball park. Did you record distance on your field test by any chance? I mapped out the distance after the run. 3.75 miles in 28 minutes. in that case *if* you have a GPS/polar pedomoter watch you could also instead of training by HR use pace as your way to gauge intensity. It is less variable than HR hence there is not much guessing, you only have to adjust pace sometimes if you leave in a hilly place. Using Daniels' running formula your VDOT would be around 42-43 hence your training paces would be around: Z1 - Easy pace - 9:48 > Z2 - Steady pace - 9:05 to 9:45 Z3 - Marathon pace - 8:25 to 9:00 Z4 - Threshold pace - 7:52 to 8:20 Z5 - VO2 pace - < 7:45 Just a suggestion, IMO it s a more efficient to train at, of course always using RPE as primarily way to make sure you are running at the right intensity given how your body feels on a given day.
[thread hi-jack] Great comments Jorge. I'll have to check out that website, since a lot of my training is based on time (since I often run the same courses all the time). I would like to incorporate HR training this fall/spring and hope that info can help. [/end thread hi-jack] |
| 2009-08-05 11:26 AM in reply to: #2328555 |
Champion 9600 Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question I always liked that chart but having so many different race times, I see a fairly large divergence in training paces depending on what race tiem I use. How would you reconcille those, Jorge? |
| 2009-08-05 12:19 PM in reply to: #2329581 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question bryancd - 2009-08-05 11:26 AM I always liked that chart but having so many different race times, I see a fairly large divergence in training paces depending on what race tiem I use. How would you reconcille those, Jorge? As long as all run race results came during normal conditions (i.e. you raced the distance rested trying to achieve a PR) it means you better trained (or fit) to tackle certain distances. For instance is common for some people to do very good at shorter distance up to around 10 miles because their VO2 max and Threshold pace is highly trained but once they start going longer their pace begins to falling off the 'curve' because their endurance training adaptation is limited. OTOH the opposite can happen, someone might have a better endurance engine which allows them to sustain a good pace for longer distances but since their VO2/Threshold paces aren't as trained, their speed on shorter distances is not that much different. I currently fall on the 1st example because I haven't spent much time training for long distance racing beyond 13.1 miles hence even though my speed up to 13.1 miles is pretty good and the VDOT predicts I could run a 2:32 marathon based on my 10K PR, I still would need to to the adequate training to make that happen, otherwise if I try to that know once I cross my fitness threshold I'll struggle to hold onto the pace I am capable of and I will slow down missing the prediction by 15-20 or more minutes. Using different stand alone run race results and the calculator you can identify your weakness and work on that. Edited by JorgeM 2009-08-05 12:20 PM |
| 2009-08-05 12:23 PM in reply to: #2329001 |
Champion 8540 the colony texas | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question KenD - 2009-08-05 7:42 AM My HR during the race is somewhat deceiving. I didn't go all out until the last 1/2 mile. I get kinda chit-chatty on the course. well you have to talk with all your fans. just keep it simple. I just made a custom HR chart tailored for just you recovery 1-155 training.156-185 all out balls to the wall -186+ |
| 2009-08-05 12:29 PM in reply to: #2329738 |
Pro 4827 McKinney, TX | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question Gaarryy - 2009-08-05 12:23 PM well you have to talk with all your fans. just keep it simple. I just made a custom HR chart tailored for just you recovery 1-155 training.156-185 all out balls to the wall -186+ Thanks, Gary. I think the "chit-chattiness" falls into the "I'm around other people who also talk too much about their training and I'm ecstatic to be here" category. |
| 2009-08-05 1:18 PM in reply to: #2329726 |
| Pro 4054 yep, | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question JorgeM - 2009-08-05 1:19 PM bryancd - 2009-08-05 11:26 AM I always liked that chart but having so many different race times, I see a fairly large divergence in training paces depending on what race tiem I use. How would you reconcille those, Jorge? As long as all run race results came during normal conditions (i.e. you raced the distance rested trying to achieve a PR) it means you better trained (or fit) to tackle certain distances. For instance is common for some people to do very good at shorter distance up to around 10 miles because their VO2 max and Threshold pace is highly trained but once they start going longer their pace begins to falling off the 'curve' because their endurance training adaptation is limited. OTOH the opposite can happen, someone might have a better endurance engine which allows them to sustain a good pace for longer distances but since their VO2/Threshold paces aren't as trained, their speed on shorter distances is not that much different. I currently fall on the 1st example because I haven't spent much time training for long distance racing beyond 13.1 miles hence even though my speed up to 13.1 miles is pretty good and the VDOT predicts I could run a 2:32 marathon based on my 10K PR, I still would need to to the adequate training to make that happen, otherwise if I try to that know once I cross my fitness threshold I'll struggle to hold onto the pace I am capable of and I will slow down missing the prediction by 15-20 or more minutes. Using different stand alone run race results and the calculator you can identify your weakness and work on that.
Jorge.. can this chart also be applied to biking and swimming?? Or is it just limited to running? |
| 2009-08-05 2:23 PM in reply to: #2328555 |
Extreme Veteran 570 | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question Just a suggestion, IMO it s a more efficient to train at, of course always using RPE as primarily way to make sure you are running at the right intensity given how your body feels on a given day. Hi Jorge - I'm glad you chimed in. So you feel pace is more efficient for training than heart rate? It's been a couple of years, but I thought I'd remembered you as a big proponent of HR zones. Has that changed over the last couple of seasons? Interested in hearing what makes you feel Daniel's formula is more effective as I've been thinking of giving that a try myself for a change of pace. Err pun intended. |
| 2009-08-05 5:16 PM in reply to: #2328555 |
Extreme Veteran 700 Tucson | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question /hijack Does the VDOT calculation not work for us slow people? It seems to not be able to find a suitable VDOT once you go past a 30 min 5k. /end hijack Edited by kmanus 2009-08-05 5:19 PM |
| 2009-08-06 8:00 AM in reply to: #2329899 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question Dlaxman31 - 2009-08-05 1:18 PM VDOT should only be used for running, but if you are interested in fiding critical velocity for swimming, shoot me a PM. For cycling unless you have a powermeter you'll have to go by HR (do a field test) and RPE.JorgeM - 2009-08-05 1:19 PM bryancd - 2009-08-05 11:26 AM I always liked that chart but having so many different race times, I see a fairly large divergence in training paces depending on what race tiem I use. How would you reconcille those, Jorge? As long as all run race results came during normal conditions (i.e. you raced the distance rested trying to achieve a PR) it means you better trained (or fit) to tackle certain distances. For instance is common for some people to do very good at shorter distance up to around 10 miles because their VO2 max and Threshold pace is highly trained but once they start going longer their pace begins to falling off the 'curve' because their endurance training adaptation is limited. OTOH the opposite can happen, someone might have a better endurance engine which allows them to sustain a good pace for longer distances but since their VO2/Threshold paces aren't as trained, their speed on shorter distances is not that much different. I currently fall on the 1st example because I haven't spent much time training for long distance racing beyond 13.1 miles hence even though my speed up to 13.1 miles is pretty good and the VDOT predicts I could run a 2:32 marathon based on my 10K PR, I still would need to to the adequate training to make that happen, otherwise if I try to that know once I cross my fitness threshold I'll struggle to hold onto the pace I am capable of and I will slow down missing the prediction by 15-20 or more minutes. Using different stand alone run race results and the calculator you can identify your weakness and work on that.
Jorge.. can this chart also be applied to biking and swimming?? Or is it just limited to running? |
| 2009-08-06 8:17 AM in reply to: #2330094 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: HR Zone Question yojimbo - 2009-08-05 2:23 PM yes for sure my opinion has changed the more I've learned and experience I've gained. At first I followed the crowd based on what I was taught at USAT clinics and learned from some popular books regarded as the 'bibles' in triathlon; however the more I learned from experienced and knowledgeable sports physiologists, coaches and literature based on actual science and not interpretations/anecdotal evidence I changed my mind.Just a suggestion, IMO it s a more efficient to train at, of course always using RPE as primarily way to make sure you are running at the right intensity given how your body feels on a given day. Hi Jorge - I'm glad you chimed in. So you feel pace is more efficient for training than heart rate? It's been a couple of years, but I thought I'd remembered you as a big proponent of HR zones. Has that changed over the last couple of seasons? Interested in hearing what makes you feel Daniel's formula is more effective as I've been thinking of giving that a try myself for a change of pace. Err pun intended. This doesn't mean I believe HRM is useless and people should toss it away; it is a great training tool if one understands its limitations and adjust accordingly. But given it can be affected by many variables in terms of running I now believe pace and RPE provides you with better information, less variability hence allows you to train more efficient. If you have a watch and now the distance you are running or better yet if you have a GPS/pedometer (like polar) it is like you have a power meter for running. |
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