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2009-10-22 11:22 PM

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Subject: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
I've been runnig for over a decade now, and have definitely hit my zone of seriously diminishing returns. The science I've read in running books about most of the gains at this point coming from aerobic improvements (meaning mainly from long slow training, 90+ minutes) and not from VO2/lactate have proved very true to me in running, as I didn't break through a 10 year plateau of running ability despite serious interval work until I cranked my run volume up to 70+ miles per week, which got me to a whole different level and more of running.

I suspect I've been having similar effects on the bike. For sure, all of my big improvements this year were centered around 4-5 hour uber-hilly mountain rides that were hard, but done at a manageable pace. While I did do sprints as well, for sure, my ability spiked after every one of those long rides, moreso than any other type workout on the bike.

I haven't tried a similar method for swimming, but I strongly suspect I should. I'm a fairly new swimmer (<1yr), have got my form ok'd by qualified coaches, but am still BOP despite tons of interval work. Do long easier-intensity swims (90+ minute) have similar benefits on swimming, or does it work differently? (It seems that most everything else about swimming works remarkably differently than run/bike for me!


2009-10-23 6:29 AM
in reply to: #2474910

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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
In my opinion, for swimming no. I never do any straight swim over 500 yards.  If I want to ramp up yardage I just do more sets. On a distance day for me I do sets of 500's or 400's or a multiple sets of a countdown (500,400,300,200,100)  When I started back swimming my plan called for swimming 1500 straight and so forth, which I started out doing. I swam competively throughout college, and started thinking back to those days, I never swam anything over a 500 back then. Granted I was a sprinter and actually a flyer. However I could swim a 500 in under 5 min.  So in my opinion, I would not do straight long sets,  to up your yardage just do more sets.  Like I said though, I was not a distance guy, this is just what I do, I can't stand to swim for 20 or so minutes straight, I like to break it up.
2009-10-23 8:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
agarose2000 - 2009-10-22 11:22 PM I've been runnig for over a decade now, and have definitely hit my zone of seriously diminishing returns. The science I've read in running books about most of the gains at this point coming from aerobic improvements (meaning mainly from long slow training, 90+ minutes) and not from VO2/lactate have proved very true to me in running, as I didn't break through a 10 year plateau of running ability despite serious interval work until I cranked my run volume up to 70+ miles per week, which got me to a whole different level and more of running.

I suspect I've been having similar effects on the bike. For sure, all of my big improvements this year were centered around 4-5 hour uber-hilly mountain rides that were hard, but done at a manageable pace. While I did do sprints as well, for sure, my ability spiked after every one of those long rides, moreso than any other type workout on the bike.

I haven't tried a similar method for swimming, but I strongly suspect I should. I'm a fairly new swimmer (<1yr), have got my form ok'd by qualified coaches, but am still BOP despite tons of interval work. Do long easier-intensity swims (90+ minute) have similar benefits on swimming, or does it work differently? (It seems that most everything else about swimming works remarkably differently than run/bike for me!

1st things 1st - training levels are man made to help train more efficiently by maximizing the gains of certain training adaptations. Still all training adaptations interlayer with each other hence even when doing a session at threshold power/pace you are not only inducing that adaptations but also others like muscle fiber fatigue resistance which usually gains are maximized when training around 70-75% of power threshold/pace. The same happens when you are doing a long steady state run/ride, you are maximizing training adaptations like muscle fiber fatigue resistance but also you are increasing your lactate threshold to some degree.

With that out of the way your main goals when training should be: 1) do more training load (just swim/bike/run) and 2) do specific training, which is the more specific training adaptations relevant to your main event the better you'll be prepared for it.

The reason why athletes hit plateaus is because their training load gets stuck in a certain range - it doesn't matter if you vary your intensity and duration, if you always do the same amount of training load your body eventually will adapt and gains will be diminished or stopped. In order to do more training you need to play with the equations (load = volume/duration + intensity), hence if you only can train 10 hrs x week you'll have to do some of that training more intense. But it will reach a point in which training at higher intensities will be incrementally more difficult and still you will plateau at some point. OTOH instead of sticking to only training 10 hrs per week you decrease your intensity so you can handle more training hours and now train 12- 14 hrs your body will now have to adapt to the new load and most certainly fitness gains will proceed.

In your case the reason you improved by running more is because your total load was higher of what you were used to regardless of the load mix. In order to accommodate more training you had to slow down a bit to do more. Also if your goals are to race long distance events then the more specific training you get to do the better.

In terms of biking and swimming, yes it works the same way. In fact it is good IMO to add some big/long sessions in the mix regardless of your goals. If you usually swim 4x 2000k per week, if every other week you make one of your sessions a 4-5k you will increase your load by exposing your body to new training adaptations and improvements in fitness will follow. The same applies for the bike.

2009-10-23 8:59 AM
in reply to: #2474910

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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?

Cool - makes sense.

I mention my background mainly because I've been really impressed with how effective volume increases (significant ones) at lower intensity worked as a pure runner for run improvement. It didn't matter if I did run speedwork multiple days per week at gutbusting intensity if I was under 35mpw as a pure runner, where as one speedwork session every 1, even 2 weeks was plenty good to get SIGNIFICANTLY faster at 5k,etc. For sure, doing more speedwork was not the answer to continued improvement for running - and it seems like biking for me. 

Agreed that for sure, the overall training load was likely signifincantly increased as well, since I was doing many more slow miles, but it often felt easier, as the vast majority of those miles was at a relatively slower pace.




 

2009-10-23 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
Basically, what Jorge said.  It's not that "long slow training" was better for you.  It just allowed you to increase your total training load more than if you filled your week with intervals. 

My guess is that you swim nowhere near enough to worry about which kind of swimming is "best" for you.  Just swim more.  But, if you really want some useful advice specific to you, you should use the logs.
2009-10-23 9:36 AM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
agarose2000 - 2009-10-23 8:59 AM

Cool - makes sense.

I mention my background mainly because I've been really impressed with how effective volume increases (significant ones) at lower intensity worked as a pure runner for run improvement. It didn't matter if I did run speedwork multiple days per week at gutbusting intensity if I was under 35mpw as a pure runner, where as one speedwork session every 1, even 2 weeks was plenty good to get SIGNIFICANTLY faster at 5k,etc. For sure, doing more speedwork was not the answer to continued improvement for running - and it seems like biking for me. 

Agreed that for sure, the overall training load was likely signifincantly increased as well, since I was doing many more slow miles, but it often felt easier, as the vast majority of those miles was at a relatively slower pace.

and that's one of the main reasons increasing your load by reducing your intensity but increasing your volume works; for those who have the time to train more I think is a great way to go about improving fitness.



2009-10-23 9:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
shad01 - 2009-10-23 6:29 AM In my opinion, for swimming no. I never do any straight swim over 500 yards.  If I want to ramp up yardage I just do more sets. On a distance day for me I do sets of 500's or 400's or a multiple sets of a countdown (500,400,300,200,100)  When I started back swimming my plan called for swimming 1500 straight and so forth, which I started out doing. I swam competively throughout college, and started thinking back to those days, I never swam anything over a 500 back then. Granted I was a sprinter and actually a flyer. However I could swim a 500 in under 5 min.  So in my opinion, I would not do straight long sets,  to up your yardage just do more sets.  Like I said though, I was not a distance guy, this is just what I do, I can't stand to swim for 20 or so minutes straight, I like to break it up.


X2. Keep it to 500 repeats or shorter. Long slow swims aren't worth your time. Do the repeats and focus on a steady pace.
2009-10-23 1:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
tjfry - 2009-10-23 9:52 AM

Keep it to 500 repeats or shorter. Long slow swims aren't worth your time. Do the repeats and focus on a steady pace.


Really?
2009-10-23 2:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
I  guess I'm a contrarian at heart.

I can't imagine preparing for a 1.2mile swim without doing some long swims as preparation.  Maybe it's different for me because I used to swim, but my focus when I decided to enter an Olympic triathlon was to up my non-stop yardage.  I basically started each workout with 1500 to 2000 yds non-stop.  I didn't worry about speed, my focus was on maintaining form & getting my arms & cardio used to swimming that long without a break.

Did it help my speed?  Probably not, but it did adjust my frame of mind so that I no longer think a 500yd swim is a "long" swim.

I would swim longer distances once a week in addition to interval training.  Conditioning yourself to swim faster over 500yds is great for a 500yd race, but for a 2,000yd race....
2009-10-23 2:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
stateu - 2009-10-23 1:47 PM
tjfry - 2009-10-23 9:52 AM Keep it to 500 repeats or shorter. Long slow swims aren't worth your time. Do the repeats and focus on a steady pace.
Really?


Absolutely. I've only swam over 3000 straight a handful of times(pool) in my life and most were swim-a-thons to raise money, a couple were testing related and one was a very rough week (107,000 yards) and the coach ran out of ideas.

If you swim a 2500 straight, chances are your pace will be all over the board, but if you do 5X500's on a very tight interval/short rest you will hold yourself accountable to the pace. The way you train swimming is very different than running or cycling. Running/cycling often does workouts in which the rest is a set number (i.e. 4X1mile on the track with a 1/2mile easy jog between, or 5 minute effort on the bike with a 2 minute rest). In swimming, the rest is rarely set (especially if your not a sprinter) but the interval is. So If you do a set of 100's with an interval of 1:30, you can swim the 100 in 1:15 and get :15 seconds rest or you can swim it in 1:27 and get 3 seconds rest. One reason is that swimming is weightless or zero impact and your recovery time is greatly decreased. Another reason is that teaching or forcing pace is a priority (just like run and bike) and this is the best way to monitor and force it. People often swim a 1000 in X time, then divide by 10 to get their 100 pace. Unless you got some experience swimming, chances are you are way off base that way in looking at your average. You probably went out WAY too quick, sagged in the middle and brought it home fast. Horrible way to work on pace. Take that same 1000 and do 5X200 on a tight interval and now all of your times are consistent and you discover your weaknesses. there are other reasons....wow. I really rambled on. I'll stop there. Sorry about that. Hope that helps.
2009-10-23 2:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
Just to add my .02, not nearly as fast as this  ^^ guy, but spot on.  6 x 500 Repeats on a set interval, working hard, are more beneficial for building up speed and endurance than a 3K straight.  I'd say even 200s are better for building speed, but you do need to build up the endurance to maintain the speed for the entire set.

I know it's a great feeling to get that first 1K straight swim in (I remember mine), then mile, then 3K, etc.  But in all honesty they don't do much except, frankly, teach you to swim long and slow.  My opinion.

I will say, however, that I do long (i.e., 1 mile+) ocean swims once a week in season.  It takes me a few swims to get my OW skills and arms back at the begining of the season, then I continue through the spring/summer/fall with the tri club.  Necessary?  probably not, but ocean swims are just plain fun


2009-10-23 3:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...
2009-10-23 3:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
dewcubs - 2009-10-23 3:00 PM wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...


I'm a newbie to tris but not to swimming. My plan also called for long swims, but like I said above, in high school, uss, and college, I never did that. So I went back to what I knew worked. I think a long swim is good MENTALLY and that is about it IMO.  I did still do some longer time trial swims every so often. That was the only thing for that day though.  Warm up, 1000 yd or 1500 yd tt swim, cool down and leave.  I would think your plan would have that though no?  For me, that is the only time I swim a long uninterupted swim. My .02
2009-10-23 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
The key is to keep short rest intervals.


Plus nobody has mentioned it, but as you get more and more tired, form gets progressively worse, so if you give yourself a *SHORT* breather in between sets it is easier to reinforce good form.  I was a skeptic at first too, but I think I made the mistake of taking too long of a break in between my 500's instead of giving myself pre-set start intervals for the workout. 
2009-10-23 3:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?

wow...lots of great info.

my one thing is I tend to do 1 longer ocean swim per week.  since i have a beach about 20 min away where i can s/b/r and even do a transition and some workous are swim / bike or swim / run.

my swim workouts would be 45 min - 1 hr straight swim.  i like doing the open water swim.   but if the benefit is not there i guess maybe i can scrap this and hit the pool.

2009-10-23 3:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
dewcubs - 2009-10-23 3:00 PM wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...


that is kind of what i tend to always thought.  that is like in my post above i tend to do 1 long swim every week in the ocean.

it gets me mentally preped for a race and i get open water practice. 


2009-10-23 3:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
trix - 2009-10-23 1:36 PM
dewcubs - 2009-10-23 3:00 PM wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...


that is kind of what i tend to always thought.  that is like in my post above i tend to do 1 long swim every week in the ocean.

it gets me mentally preped for a race and i get open water practice. 


Nothing wrong with long swims, and if you can do them OW, all the better, since OW swimming just ain't the same as pool swims.

BUT, IMO only, 8 x 500 on 7:30 (or whatever pace makes you work), or even 6 x 500 will make you faster than if you do 1 x 4200......
2009-10-23 3:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
ChrisM - 2009-10-23 3:39 PM
trix - 2009-10-23 1:36 PM
dewcubs - 2009-10-23 3:00 PM wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...


that is kind of what i tend to always thought.  that is like in my post above i tend to do 1 long swim every week in the ocean.

it gets me mentally preped for a race and i get open water practice. 


Nothing wrong with long swims, and if you can do them OW, all the better, since OW swimming just ain't the same as pool swims.

BUT, IMO only, 8 x 500 on 7:30 (or whatever pace makes you work), or even 6 x 500 will make you faster than if you do 1 x 4200......


the beach where i swim does have bouys every 250 meters.  what i could do i guess is swim like a 500 then rest catch my breath and do it again.  although i am not sure i feel comfortable doing that in open water.  its one thing to go fast in the pool and if you get into trouble stop take a breath but in the ocean its a different story swimming 100 yrds from the shore.
2009-10-23 3:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?

I'm a newbie to tris but not to swimming. My plan also called for long swims, but like I said above, in high school, uss, and college, I never did that. So I went back to what I knew worked. I think a long swim is good MENTALLY and that is about it IMO.  I did still do some longer time trial swims every so often. That was the only thing for that day though.  Warm up, 1000 yd or 1500 yd tt swim, cool down and leave.  I would think your plan would have that though no?  For me, that is the only time I swim a long uninterupted swim. My .02


I agree.  I've been told that a great deal of racing is mental, so I don't discount this as a useful training tool.

Would I train using timed 2,000's as a weekly set?  Heck no.  I'd use them as a base-building tool.  Call it 4x500 with 0sec. rest.

Another mental aspect is the benefit 5-10sec. rest at the end of a 500 gives you.  I may just catch my breath before pushing off, but mentally I've gotten a break & I'm starting a new swim.  I don't take those breaks during a race, so I prefer to do long swims in practice when I'm training for tris.

I'm on a masters' team that's using more of a HS/College workout routine and I'm seeing improvements in my short distance speed.  But I stopped doing my longer swims and when I recently swam a 1650 for time, I found that after 7-800 yds I was feeling more tired than I was over the summer.  My pace wasn't significantly higher than I'd been holding over the summer, so I attribute the difference to the lack of distance training.

Interval training is key to swimming faster, but distance training has it's place, too.

But as to the OP's original Q -- swimming longer won't directly make you faster, but it will give you confidence and reinforce your conditioning.  Which is also helpful on race day, IMO.
2009-10-23 3:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
tjfry - 2009-10-23 2:30 PM

stateu - 2009-10-23 1:47 PM
tjfry - 2009-10-23 9:52 AM Keep it to 500 repeats or shorter. Long slow swims aren't worth your time. Do the repeats and focus on a steady pace.
Really?


Absolutely. I've only swam over 3000 straight a handful of times(pool) in my life and most were swim-a-thons to raise money, a couple were testing related and one was a very rough week (107,000 yards) and the coach ran out of ideas.

If you swim a 2500 straight, chances are your pace will be all over the board, but if you do 5X500's on a very tight interval/short rest you will hold yourself accountable to the pace. The way you train swimming is very different than running or cycling. Running/cycling often does workouts in which the rest is a set number (i.e. 4X1mile on the track with a 1/2mile easy jog between, or 5 minute effort on the bike with a 2 minute rest). In swimming, the rest is rarely set (especially if your not a sprinter) but the interval is. So If you do a set of 100's with an interval of 1:30, you can swim the 100 in 1:15 and get :15 seconds rest or you can swim it in 1:27 and get 3 seconds rest. One reason is that swimming is weightless or zero impact and your recovery time is greatly decreased. Another reason is that teaching or forcing pace is a priority (just like run and bike) and this is the best way to monitor and force it. People often swim a 1000 in X time, then divide by 10 to get their 100 pace. Unless you got some experience swimming, chances are you are way off base that way in looking at your average. You probably went out WAY too quick, sagged in the middle and brought it home fast. Horrible way to work on pace. Take that same 1000 and do 5X200 on a tight interval and now all of your times are consistent and you discover your weaknesses. there are other reasons....wow. I really rambled on. I'll stop there. Sorry about that. Hope that helps.


Thanks for the explanation.
2009-10-23 4:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
dewcubs - 2009-10-23 3:00 PM wait wait wait....newbie here so let me get this straight.....you folks are saying that there should not be any long swims???  If that is true then why do ALL of the training plans have long swims in them?  I am new so I am probably wrong here, but swimming 500 yards at a time for a 4200 yard race would seem to be dooming yourself to failure....please enlighten me...and I am NOT being sarcastic just pessimistic...


Of course there should be long swims. Just not straight. Let me ask you this: If you go ride 100 miles and you stop at 50 miles to run in quick and refill a water bottle, do you then consider it 2X50 miles rides?  If you do open turns and swim a 1000, do you consider it 40X25's? You have to look at the workout as a whole. If you swim repeat 500's and take a 20 second break inbetween, the rest is far from enough to fully recover. If you do repeat 500's and take 2 min between, then you're doing it wrong. You get a much better workout with 8X500 at a consistent pace then 4000 with your pacing all over the board and your stroke falling apart. I can't speak to other coaches and plans, but I will say that most of the coaches where I live come from running backgrounds so they put swim workouts together like running workouts.



Edited by tjfry 2009-10-23 4:30 PM


2009-10-23 4:12 PM
in reply to: #2474910

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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
Great advice here from some excellent swimmers.

The only caveat I would add is that for long course racing (Half and Full IM) it's ok to do a few straight swims of the distance (1.2 or 2.4 miles) during your training. Not to get faster or better, but it can provide you with some confidence, or can give you an idea based on your current swim fitness, what you may feel like come race day. Do it early enough in your training to work to improve and do it again closer to the race.
2009-10-23 4:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
Great info thanks!!!  Really eye opening.....
2009-10-23 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
i think we are talking different leagues....you guys have a crapload of experience....i look at your logs and wow....

my first ever 1 mile was this year in march....i started last year in nov and went from barely swimming 25 in a pool to swim a 1:30 / 100 yrds.  a long straight 45 min swim gives me a big boost for my race.  probably next year, i will reavaulte my training wanting to get alot quicker. 

2009-10-24 4:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Benefits of long swims (and run/bike)?
Well it makes alot of sense.  I typically do a few 100's then 2x1000's but to be honest my form does fall off and it becomes unproductive.  I might try out a few 500's and see if it helps; I'm still a newbie swimmer still trying to work on form and this seems like a better path.
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