General Discussion Triathlon Talk » so frustrated with HR training, help please! Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
 
 
of 2
 
 
2010-09-17 11:22 AM

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
I keep searching the internet on my issue and I am really having a hard time find anything other than people (and even medical professionals) commenting that my max hr to physically impossible.

My max HR is 240...and no, that is not using a heart rate monitor. That is old school checking the pulse in my neck and counting for 10 secs. 40 beats in 10 secs...consistently. Sometimes it is beating so fast I can hardly count accurately. This happens on a hard run or hill climbing.

So if I use all the HR zone calculations of 220 minus age, etc etc, it forces me to freaking WALK to stay in zones. A

I am not out of shape and have always had a high heart rate. Resting HR is 60.
32 yr old female.

Any thoughts?? Am I doing something wrong here??


2010-09-17 11:28 AM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Veteran
258
1001002525
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!

Wow,  I don't have a answer for you but that is such a wide range.  When I started my high was around 200 but my low was around 80.  I wish you luck on finding a answer..

2010-09-17 11:29 AM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Extreme Veteran
516
500
Chicago
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
I don't train by heart rate, but I'm just curious if you actually use a heart rate monitor.
2010-09-17 11:32 AM
in reply to: #3104479

Extreme Veteran
664
5001002525
Minneapolis
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
I'm not big on training by HR, but if that's what floats your boat, then you would be best served to get & use a good-quality HRM (not DITY with your fingers and public math), and go get a VO2-Max test to most accurately determine your own HR levels.

Cheers, Chris
2010-09-17 11:34 AM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Payson, AZ
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
You need to throw away your zones based on max hr and do a LT field test intead
2010-09-17 11:35 AM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Pro
4353
200020001001001002525
Wallingford, PA
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
1) Forget about MAX HR - it's a meaningless measurement when it comes to endurance training....

2) If you really want to train using HR as a guide, invest in a a heart rate monitor. Once you're comfortable using it, conduct an LT (lactate threshold) field test. You can find directions on doing the test here.

3) Once you've done the field test, use the LT number you determined to establish your training zones.


All that said, though, if you are new to endurance training, I would suggest that for now you exercise by perceived effort. It sounds like, as a beginner, you are probably pushing a bit too hard. Do your training runs/rides at a pace that feels easy to moderately hard, and during which you could hold a conversation either in full sentences or at least a few words at a time. Once you've been training for a while, then consider jumping into the world of HR training. For now, just get out there and begin building that aerobic base at an easy, sustainable effort.

ETA: If "easy sustainable effort" means you need to walk up hills for now - that's okay!!

Edited by jsnowash 2010-09-17 11:38 AM


2010-09-17 11:48 AM
in reply to: #3104511

User image

Pro
6011
50001000
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
jsnowash - 2010-09-17 12:35 PM 1) Forget about MAX HR - it's a meaningless measurement when it comes to endurance training.... 2) If you really want to train using HR as a guide, invest in a a heart rate monitor. Once you're comfortable using it, conduct an LT (lactate threshold) field test. You can find directions on doing the test here. 3) Once you've done the field test, use the LT number you determined to establish your training zones. All that said, though, if you are new to endurance training, I would suggest that for now you exercise by perceived effort. It sounds like, as a beginner, you are probably pushing a bit too hard. Do your training runs/rides at a pace that feels easy to moderately hard, and during which you could hold a conversation either in full sentences or at least a few words at a time. Once you've been training for a while, then consider jumping into the world of HR training. For now, just get out there and begin building that aerobic base at an easy, sustainable effort. ETA: If "easy sustainable effort" means you need to walk up hills for now - that's okay!!


x2!  Good post!

+ If you do decide to use HR instead of RPE, you need to know that your zones for biking and running are different so you need to do separate tests for them.  Also, you will need to re-test periodically, because your zones will change as your fitness improves.
2010-09-17 2:50 PM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
great feedback, thanks everyone.

I have only used an HR monitor at one point in my life and that's when I was pregnant and still running with my first child (5 yrs ago). Dr's orders were to not allow my HR over 150.

I guess I thought the 240 WAS my lactate threshold, but after reading more about it, it sound like it would need to be the average over a determined period of time at a strong effort.

Everything I had read up until now was to build a good aerobic base to start, hence why I was trying to find the zones. But you all are the first to tell me to throw it all out and go by RPE....hmmm I will have to try this... Is it harder to test progress this way?
2010-09-17 3:04 PM
in reply to: #3105046

User image

Veteran
693
500100252525
Indianapolis
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 3:50 PM

great feedback, thanks everyone.

I have only used an HR monitor at one point in my life and that's when I was pregnant and still running with my first child (5 yrs ago). Dr's orders were to not allow my HR over 150.

I guess I thought the 240 WAS my lactate threshold, but after reading more about it, it sound like it would need to be the average over a determined period of time at a strong effort.

Everything I had read up until now was to build a good aerobic base to start, hence why I was trying to find the zones. But you all are the first to tell me to throw it all out and go by RPE....hmmm I will have to try this... Is it harder to test progress this way?


HR training, IMHO, is basically useless. But, Dr.'s orders are orders I guess. Maybe you should ask him/her how he/she arrived at that number? If you can ignore HR I would train on pace. You can use something like mcmillan running or daniels vdot formula based on recent past races. Buy yourself a cheap Garmin (like a 305 etc) and train on pace. For the bike, use a powermeter. HR is such a DEpendent measure that it's hard to judge anything with it. Again, IMHO only.
2010-09-17 3:21 PM
in reply to: #3105046

User image

Master
1437
100010010010010025
Calgary, AB
Silver member
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 1:50 PM ... Is it harder to test progress this way?


HR doesn't really indicate progress either. Stopwatch and a fixed course is your guide to progress.


2010-09-17 3:24 PM
in reply to: #3105068

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
QUOTE] HR training, IMHO, is basically useless. But, Dr.'s orders are orders I guess. Maybe you should ask him/her how he/she arrived at that number? If you can ignore HR I would train on pace. You can use something like mcmillan running or daniels vdot formula based on recent past races. Buy yourself a cheap Garmin (like a 305 etc) and train on pace. For the bike, use a powermeter. HR is such a DEpendent measure that it's hard to judge anything with it. Again, IMHO only.


Sorry, should have been more clear...the 150 limit was provided by my doc 5 years ago when I was pregnant...just threw that out there as it was my only experience with an HR monitor as it was a question above. The 150 limit is a common number for pregnant athletes as anything more *supposedly* has the potential to deny oxygen to developing fetus and placenta. I found the more conservative docs quote the 150 as precautionary which I had no issue with

Thanks for the input!


2010-09-17 3:31 PM
in reply to: #3105068

User image

Runner
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
jamiej - 2010-09-17 4:04 PM

HR is such a DEpendent measure that it's hard to judge anything with it. Again, IMHO only.


But, you want a dependent measurement. You are measuring effort, not speed. RPE and HR both measure effort.

For example, my pace for an easy run today may be 10:00/mile. Tomorrow, it's hot and humid; at the same effort, my pace slows to 10:30. What's the right pace to use?

Pace is great for controlled efforts, like intervals. But I have found it to be misguided for general running for the average person who doesn't have a lot of racing experience.

That's been my experience, at least.
2010-09-17 3:42 PM
in reply to: #3105123

User image

Veteran
693
500100252525
Indianapolis
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
Scout7 - 2010-09-17 4:31 PM

jamiej - 2010-09-17 4:04 PM

HR is such a DEpendent measure that it's hard to judge anything with it. Again, IMHO only.


But, you want a dependent measurement. You are measuring effort, not speed. RPE and HR both measure effort.

For example, my pace for an easy run today may be 10:00/mile. Tomorrow, it's hot and humid; at the same effort, my pace slows to 10:30. What's the right pace to use?

Pace is great for controlled efforts, like intervals. But I have found it to be misguided for general running for the average person who doesn't have a lot of racing experience.

That's been my experience, at least.


I understand what you are saying but what I'm saying is that HR is DEpendent on way too many things to be a true measure of any ONE thing. Pace is pace. Watts are watts (you are training with watts right?). In racing you may have to defer to HR/RPE based on the type of day you get but for training I want something that tells me exactly what I'm doing.
Trying to judge progress based on HR is just plain silly. The guy that said a track and a stopwatch is the best way to judge progress has the right idea.
2010-09-17 4:01 PM
in reply to: #3105139

User image

Pro
6582
50001000500252525
Melbourne FL
Gold member
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
op,
If you want to use HR get a HR monitor and use it properly starting with the field tests. If you want to go by pace range based on a run race, use something like McMillan's run calculator.  Then there's good old RPE which you can find on the net or there's a table at the end of the field test link above.  There are so many factors involved with the environment and how you are feeling on the moment that nothing is concrete.  However if you measuring such a high HR using a 10 sec count at the end of a run I'd suggest slow down unless it was a hard effort run on purpose!
2010-09-17 4:19 PM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Master
2236
200010010025
Denison Texas
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 11:22

My max HR is 240...and no, that is not using a heart rate monitor. That is old school checking the pulse in my neck


Pulse and heart rate are not always the same thing! Also, Reading the heart rate this way can be inaccurate if you count not only the pulse at your carotid artery but a possible pulse in your finger tips-they will not always be in sync
2010-09-17 4:24 PM
in reply to: #3105183

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
Donto - 2010-09-17 4:01 PM op,
If you want to use HR get a HR monitor and use it properly starting with the field tests. If you want to go by pace range based on a run race, use something like McMillan's run calculator.  Then there's good old RPE which you can find on the net or there's a table at the end of the field test link above.  There are so many factors involved with the environment and how you are feeling on the moment that nothing is concrete.  However if you measuring such a high HR using a 10 sec count at the end of a run I'd suggest slow down unless it was a hard effort run on purpose!


That's a great run calculator, thanks for sharing.

I would like to do a field test but not willing to purchase an HR monitor yet just for that purpose, or for continued use yet either. Being a newbie, I have a long list of items on my wish list that I need to work through first I may see if I can find a friend and borrow.

The 240 was most certainly after a butt kicking 2 mile run. Pushed it hard enough that I wanted to throw up and felt that I absolutely no questions asked , gave it all I had. BUT, with that said, I have also counted the 240 after climbing a really tough hill out of the saddle, AND during a 9:00 min mile pace during the run portion of a brick.

I would like to think that I am pushing myself too hard, but relatively speaking, I am too slow to be so maxed, argh!!!!


2010-09-17 4:25 PM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Member
125
10025
San Diego
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
As a side note to the OP, my heart ranges tend to be on the high end as well.

At age 40 my max hr is up around 210-220ish and my Vo2 max is around 180, so don't be to put off by the higher numbers.   I find that the higher range of heart rates do effect nutrition a bit and I end up putting a few extra electrolytes in my body for longer efforts.

Cheers,
-jason
2010-09-17 4:27 PM
in reply to: #3105227

User image

Lafayette, CO
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 3:24 PM
Donto - 2010-09-17 4:01 PM op,
If you want to use HR get a HR monitor and use it properly starting with the field tests. If you want to go by pace range based on a run race, use something like McMillan's run calculator.  Then there's good old RPE which you can find on the net or there's a table at the end of the field test link above.  There are so many factors involved with the environment and how you are feeling on the moment that nothing is concrete.  However if you measuring such a high HR using a 10 sec count at the end of a run I'd suggest slow down unless it was a hard effort run on purpose!


That's a great run calculator, thanks for sharing.

I would like to do a field test but not willing to purchase an HR monitor yet just for that purpose, or for continued use yet either. Being a newbie, I have a long list of items on my wish list that I need to work through first I may see if I can find a friend and borrow.

The 240 was most certainly after a butt kicking 2 mile run. Pushed it hard enough that I wanted to throw up and felt that I absolutely no questions asked , gave it all I had. BUT, with that said, I have also counted the 240 after climbing a really tough hill out of the saddle, AND during a 9:00 min mile pace during the run portion of a brick.

I would like to think that I am pushing myself too hard, but relatively speaking, I am too slow to be so maxed, argh!!!!


I don't understand the bolded.  Just because you're slow doesn't mean you're not working to YOUR max.   If you're not willing to buy a HR monitor then drop the HR training plan because it's useless periodic measuring or measuring at the end of your runs isn't going to do you much good.  Go by RPE. 
2010-09-17 4:48 PM
in reply to: #3105046

User image

Pro
4353
200020001001001002525
Wallingford, PA
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 3:50 PM

great feedback, thanks everyone.

I have only used an HR monitor at one point in my life and that's when I was pregnant and still running with my first child (5 yrs ago). Dr's orders were to not allow my HR over 150.

I guess I thought the 240 WAS my lactate threshold, but after reading more about it, it sound like it would need to be the average over a determined period of time at a strong effort.

Everything I had read up until now was to build a good aerobic base to start, hence why I was trying to find the zones. But you all are the first to tell me to throw it all out and go by RPE....hmmm I will have to try this... Is it harder to test progress this way?


The zones won't be of much use to you if you don't have a HR monitor. The monitor allows you to check in periodically throughout a workout (without stopping) to see if you are staying in the targeted zone. It's tough to check your pulse in the middle of a run or bike ride.... It definitely sounds like RPE is the way to go for you right now. It's not perfect, and sometimes you'll push harder or easier than what might be "ideal", but it will put you in the right general area. Plus, it's just one less thing to obsess about during your run or bike Just go out and train at an easy sustainable pace for now. Don't bother trying to push yourself until you feel like you're gonna puke. You shouldn't be running that hard at this point, anyway....

Re: the second bolded point, you can certainly measure progress training by RPE. One way would be to compare your pace on the same course under similar conditions at the same level of perceived effort. As you get more fit, you will be faster at the same level of effort.

Edited by jsnowash 2010-09-17 4:49 PM
2010-09-17 4:56 PM
in reply to: #3105068

User image

Champion
9600
500020002000500100
Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
jamiej - 2010-09-17 2:04 PM
HR training, IMHO, is basically useless. But, Dr.'s orders are orders I guess. Maybe you should ask him/her how he/she arrived at that number? If you can ignore HR I would train on pace. You can use something like mcmillan running or daniels vdot formula based on recent past races. Buy yourself a cheap Garmin (like a 305 etc) and train on pace. For the bike, use a powermeter. HR is such a DEpendent measure that it's hard to judge anything with it. Again, IMHO only.


Totally disagree. HR can be a very valuable training and racing tool. I use it and somehow that "usless" measure has served me, and MANY others, very well. With consistent and correct use, many of the variabilities can be accounted and adjusted for. Pace can be problematic dependent on conditions as well.

Edited by bryancd 2010-09-17 5:00 PM
2010-09-17 5:05 PM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Champion
8936
50002000100050010010010010025
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
"Pace is pace" is inaccurate as well.

That implies that a flat run in 50 degree weather should be at the same pace as an uphill run at 100 degrees.

RPE is RPE is a more accurate statement.


2010-09-17 6:34 PM
in reply to: #3105219

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
Av8rTx - 2010-09-17 4:19 PM
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 11:22

My max HR is 240...and no, that is not using a heart rate monitor. That is old school checking the pulse in my neck


Pulse and heart rate are not always the same thing! Also, Reading the heart rate this way can be inaccurate if you count not only the pulse at your carotid artery but a possible pulse in your finger tips-they will not always be in sync


See, that is why I thought I may be doing something incorrectly, wondering about the accuracy of this...
2010-09-17 6:37 PM
in reply to: #3105229

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
jasonmkennedy - 2010-09-17 4:25 PM As a side note to the OP, my heart ranges tend to be on the high end as well.

At age 40 my max hr is up around 210-220ish and my Vo2 max is around 180, so don't be to put off by the higher numbers.   I find that the higher range of heart rates do effect nutrition a bit and I end up putting a few extra electrolytes in my body for longer efforts.

Cheers,
-jason


Very interesting....other than the extra electrolytes, how do you modify your diet? Extra calories, carbs?
2010-09-17 6:42 PM
in reply to: #3105231

User image

Veteran
128
10025
in the land of hills
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!

COSkiGirl - 2010-09-17 4:27 PM
kc_racer - 2010-09-17 3:24 PM
Donto - 2010-09-17 4:01 PM op,
If you want to use HR get a HR monitor and use it properly starting with the field tests. If you want to go by pace range based on a run race, use something like McMillan's run calculator.  Then there's good old RPE which you can find on the net or there's a table at the end of the field test link above.  There are so many factors involved with the environment and how you are feeling on the moment that nothing is concrete.  However if you measuring such a high HR using a 10 sec count at the end of a run I'd suggest slow down unless it was a hard effort run on purpose!


That's a great run calculator, thanks for sharing.

I would like to do a field test but not willing to purchase an HR monitor yet just for that purpose, or for continued use yet either. Being a newbie, I have a long list of items on my wish list that I need to work through first I may see if I can find a friend and borrow.

The 240 was most certainly after a butt kicking 2 mile run. Pushed it hard enough that I wanted to throw up and felt that I absolutely no questions asked , gave it all I had. BUT, with that said, I have also counted the 240 after climbing a really tough hill out of the saddle, AND during a 9:00 min mile pace during the run portion of a brick.

I would like to think that I am pushing myself too hard, but relatively speaking, I am too slow to be so maxed, argh!!!!


I don't understand the bolded.  Just because you're slow doesn't mean you're not working to YOUR max.   If you're not willing to buy a HR monitor then drop the HR training plan because it's useless periodic measuring or measuring at the end of your runs isn't going to do you much good.  Go by RPE. 

 

bolded: I get your point, it is just me being impatient I'm cool with being gassed after a hard sub 8:00 min mile run, not 9:00 min plus. I guess this is just a huge wake up call for me because I am not new to running (at least not recreational 5ks), just tris. I took a long break from running with my second child and have spent the last 5 months getting back into it but it is taking far longer than I ever expected

2010-09-17 6:47 PM
in reply to: #3104479

User image

Master
1547
100050025
Subject: RE: so frustrated with HR training, help please!
You may also find this Running For Fitness site helpful for calculating proper ranges.

New Thread
General Discussion Triathlon Talk » so frustrated with HR training, help please! Rss Feed  
 
 
of 2