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Question for HR Managers
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 2010-11-26 3:52 PM |
Extreme Veteran 763   |  Subject: Question for HR ManagersI got laid off 4 weeks ago and subsequently have been looking for a new job. I have been lucky enough to have gotten several interviews and have rejected 2 offers that I did not think were great fits based on the corporate culture. I have been an engineering manager for the past 10 years and recently interviewed for a Project Engineer at a large Aviation company. The technical interviews went really well. I spent the day interviewing with 8 technical people. I liked all of the people and really liked the culture that they had and would enjoy the job. My last interview was with the HR Manager. This interview went well with the exception of the 3 salary related questions. Here were the questions and my answers: Q1) What are your salary expectations for this job? A1) I am open to negotiation based on my experience and the job requirements. Q2) What was your salary at your last job. A2) I told her exactly I did not hedge up or down. Q3) What is the minimum salary you would consider? What number would you say thanks, but no thanks. A3) I gave a number that I thought was pretty low for Project Engineers with 17 years experience. Last week the HR Manager called me to tell me they were definitely interested and wanted to review my answers to the salary questions. She asked me the same 3 questions and I answered them the same way. A few days later she called to tell me they were definitely going to extend me an offer and that if I did not like the salary to not worry about it as it is negotiable. Two days later I got the job offer as promised. The problem was it was for the exact amount that I said If it were any lower I would walk away. They requested an answer in writing within a week. I sent them a note thanking them for the offer and that I needed to think about it. Two days later I called to discuss the salary with the HR Manager. I told her that it was a 16,000 a year pay cut from my last job (the one I got laid off from). She asked me to give her a number that I would definitely say yes to. I gave her that number and she was going to take that back to the hiring manager. Does this sound ethical to you (people with experience in HR please)? I find this to be a crazy way of negotiating a salary. I also find it very strange that the offer was exactly the number that I gave them as the lowest. They know how much they are going to pay for the position before they post it. What do you make of this? Again I prefer to hear from people with HR experience as this could not be farther from my area of expertise. Kevin Kevin Edited by chevy57 2010-11-26 3:52 PM |
| 2010-11-26 4:15 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Pro 6767   the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers I'm not in HR, but I am not surprised they would offer the rock bottom salary. Why should they pay you more than what you state is your minimum? My own experience a few years ago was similar. I was in private practice, but considering an academic job that had been offered to me. I told the other child psychiatrist at our hospital about my planned move, and learned she was also taking an academic job out of state. We had both been working for our hospital for several years, so they knew what they had. We were in charge of clinics, a partial program, and inpatient unit, and consultation duties all over the county. If we both took the jobs we were looking at, all the child and adolescent psychiatry at the hospital would have to stop. I told them I was willing to stay for a specific salary that was only slightly more than the academic job (and significantly less than the going rate for child psychiatrists). I gave them a deadline that I needed to know by so I could respond to the academic job I had lined up. They initially wanted to pay me the same as the academic site (which I declined). And at 6 pm on Friday (the deadline) they called me to accept the deal. I did not get a raise until they realized that they were unable to hire any other child psychiatrists at the rates they were paying (it took about 3 or 4 years). My take-home lesson is that most employers will try to pay the least they can whenever they can. |
| 2010-11-26 5:03 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Expert 2180 Boise, Idaho | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Majority of work career has been in HR. In a former life I was a Recruiter/Head Hunter for IT folks. PM me if you want some negotiating tips. |
| 2010-11-26 5:05 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers If I asked a candidate "what's the minimum salary that you would accept?" and I offered that salary and the person turned me down, or, frankly, even said they would need a few days to think about it, especially after I'd confirmed the info with them previously, I'd be pi$$ed. They asked you a question, and they had the right to a straight answer from you. If $X was less than you wanted, you shouldn't have said you'd accept $X. I would at the very least tell you the offer stands. (HR Mgr for 10yrs) Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2010-11-26 5:07 PM |
| 2010-11-26 5:18 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
| Extreme Veteran 763 | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Guys, A little clarification. The question in the interview was at what level would you say thanks but no thanks. The offer came in at that exact number. I did not say I would except that offer. In my mind I have to say thanks but no thanks to the initial offer. The next level of negotiation is where she asked me for a number that I would definitely say yes to. I gave her that number and have not heard back from her. If she meets that number I will accept. I am not trying to jerk anyone around, but I am a little dissapointed that the offer was the number I said I would walk away at (I did not say I would accept). She also told me that salary was negotiable. Kevin Edited by chevy57 2010-11-26 5:22 PM |
| 2010-11-26 5:23 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Master 2538 Albuquerque | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers |
| 2010-11-26 5:42 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Sorry--I misunderstood as well. There have been times when I was precluded from offering a penny more than a certain amount, and I offered what I could knowing that it was less than the candidate wanted in the hope that they would be flexible if they really wanted the job, but I'd always make a point saying, "I know you're looking for more, but due to budget/internal equity etc, this is the best I can do." Edited by jmk-brooklyn 2010-11-26 5:47 PM |
| 2010-11-26 5:44 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers |
| 2010-11-26 9:58 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Expert 1215 Austin, TX | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Why isn't it ethical? They asked what is the least amount you would accept and indicated you could counter offer. It is still an employer's market. What is their benefits package? Does it offset any of the salary you are losing? What is the potential for raises after you get hired? Perhaps they are low balling you to get you on board cheap and then they may give you a raise when they see what value you offer. |
| 2010-11-26 10:33 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Master 1929 Midlothian, VA | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers chevy57 - I have been lucky enough to have gotten several interviews and have rejected 2 offers that I did not think were great fits based on the corporate culture. I had trouble reading past this. You turned down 2 offers already? Why would you even have resumes in at a company you didn't agree with in the first place? Most people pray to even get an interview and you are turning down multiple jobs? If whatever it is you do is in such high demand, by all means ask for as much as you think you can get, and don't go near that bottom dollar price you'd settle for! -eric |
| 2010-11-27 1:48 AM in reply to: #3227025 |
Alpharetta, Georgia Bronze member | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers faded_memories - 2010-11-26 10:33 PM chevy57 - I have been lucky enough to have gotten several interviews and have rejected 2 offers that I did not think were great fits based on the corporate culture. I had trouble reading past this. You turned down 2 offers already? Why would you even have resumes in at a company you didn't agree with in the first place? Not to answer for the OP, but often times it's difficult to tell what the company's culture is until you actually interview. |
| 2010-11-27 11:44 AM in reply to: #3226791 |
Champion 7554 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers How badly do you really want that job? How would you have handled the situation had you still been employed? When I was looking, I took the attitude that "negotiations" were off the table. If they wanted me and I was happy with the offer, I'd accept. If I wasn't happy with the offer, I'd turn it down.period. Over 2-3 years, they're going to get you to a salary they're happy with regardless of where you start and I didn't really want to be looking again in 2-3 after no raises. |
| 2010-11-27 6:34 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
| Extreme Veteran 763 | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers OK, Good advice here. To fill in some of the blanks. I thought I would have to just take anything I could get when I got laid off. Since I was getting calls on many of the resumes I sent in I decided to search for more of a fit as opposed to just a paycheck. So the first offer was also a low salary in a start up company with future stake in the business. I thought it sounded cool to be into something like this, but when the rubber met the road I did not have the balz to pull the trigger. The other offer was a 1 hour commute each way. The employer insisted that I relocate within 90 days. I have 2 young children in school and a wife that has a great job locally. I chose not to disrupt the school year and uproot my wife's career. The offer currently on the table is a job that I would really like with a great company. I just don't want to take that big of a step backwards on salary to start. I find it an odd coincidence that the number I gave as my walking threshold happens to be the most they can pay for the position. In the end I guess it really doesn't matter the bottom line is; can I live with it or not. Thanks for all of the opinions. Apparently all is fair in love and business. Kevin Edited by chevy57 2010-11-27 6:47 PM |
| 2010-11-27 6:49 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Veteran 129 | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Sounds like you need to go in high - if they're that penny pinching it will be a nightmare to get a raise out of them later on |
| 2010-11-27 11:21 PM in reply to: #3227492 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Dan_L - 2010-11-27 7:49 PM Sounds like you need to go in high - if they're that penny pinching it will be a nightmare to get a raise out of them later on x2. When the hospital agreed to take me on salary, I foolishly did not start out with any additional demands about performance or incentive pay. I was planning to use my PTO. However, doing the jobs of what had previously been done by 3 people obviously left little time available to take blocks of time off (I had nearly a full year with no more than a day or two taken off. I still carry a full month of PTO, and that is with converting 2 weeks to cash every year to buy new gear). At the end of the second year, I approached them about getting some sort of financial recognition for the work being done. At first there was nothing, then they agreed to a one time bonus equal to about 4 days pay. When we got a new chief who was also a child psychiatrist, he had them put into place a more standard incentive plan in line with what other hospitals do. For each of the next two years, I earned the equivalent of 4 months salary off the incentive alone - which, being based on productivity, meant that I was doing a lot more work than I had been getting paid for - even after we had another person. It took another 2 years from that point to get a raise, and even that was only because after trying for what had been at this point about 5 years to hire another new child psychiatrist, the salary offered was too low. And they really could not pay a person straight from training significantly more than the guy that had been doing the work for the last 15 years, and was at least nominally the head of the section! I know that if I look to move, I will be looking at not only the initial salary, but how any incentives are structured, how often salary is reviewed, the criteria for making changes, and how realistic it is to get the coverage needed to use the vacation time. Edited by gearboy 2010-11-27 11:23 PM |
| 2010-11-28 6:56 AM in reply to: #3226848 |
Expert 1743 Glen Burnie, Maryland | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers chevy57 - 2010-11-26 6:18 PM Guys, A little clarification. The question in the interview was at what level would you say thanks but no thanks. The offer came in at that exact number. I did not say I would except that offer. In my mind I have to say thanks but no thanks to the initial offer. The next level of negotiation is where she asked me for a number that I would definitely say yes to. I gave her that number and have not heard back from her. If she meets that number I will accept. I am not trying to jerk anyone around, but I am a little dissapointed that the offer was the number I said I would walk away at (I did not say I would accept). She also told me that salary was negotiable. Kevin I wouldn't be offended. Negotiations have to start somewhere and their starting offer should be expected to be low. They would expect you to come back with something higher than you would be willing to settle for. I have no doubt that they'll end up giving you money that you'll say "Yes" to. |
| 2010-11-29 1:18 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Supersonicus Idioticus 2439 Thunder Bay, ON | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Not an HR manager... and I'm summing up what other people say... but: They offer the lowest they think you will accept. You should counter with the highest you think they'll concede to. Right now you are thinking of this as a psychological blow... but to put this into a poker analogy... just because someone bet on a flop doesn't mean you have to be in the defensive. |
| 2010-11-29 1:37 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Champion 4942 Richmond, VA | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers The one time I interviewed for a corporate gig, I ended up almost punching the HR person. I was flown into town and put up at a decent hotel on their dime. Met with a group of great guys and found it to be a great environment. Last interview of the day was a HR wonk with no idea what type of job I was interviewing for. Instead, I got the standard questions meant to elicit my "personality type." Umm, I'm a lawyer - I will take your question, analyze it and then ask you to clarify what you meant, while also figuring out all the traps and pitfalls of any answer I could give. After 30 minutes of me answering questions with questions, we got to the salary side. Questions came up about how much I wanted to make. Apparently "fair," and "market rate" weren't acceptable. I was asked for a specific number. I simply asked them what their "fair" and "market rate" numbers were. In the end, I never gave them a specific dollar amount. I wouldn't even give them my exact current salary, but let them know if was "market rate." In hindsight I might have been a little too argumentative with the HR person, but I was very soured at that point. I get a great feeling from all the people I would be working with and then this interloper comes in and plays the heavy. In the end, after the meeting with the HR person, I told them I was no longer interested, so this became a completely moot point. (plus, the company was then bought out by a MUCH larger company a year later and most people where either fired or shipped cross country) so to the OP, I'm not in favor of giving out the numbers. never be the first offer numbers. don't hesitate to ask what your would-be co-worker's salaries are and base it off them, or make it a contingent salary (first 3 months are 3/4ths X and then at X - to offset the risk of hiring you). Having said that, here's the situation. They have now invested a decent amount of time and energy in interviewing you and processing your file. They are intersted. What is the downside of this scenario? (a) you take the low salary and are professionaly unhappy. (b) you negotiate the salary for a higher level, one that you want and you are then happy. (c) no resolution on salary and you look for a new job where you are happy. notice that only in (b) and (c) are you happy... and the trick is to not just say "No." But rather give a reason why you are approaching the negotiation. And be prepared for secondary considerations, like short term salary reduction with true-up after 3-6 months, extra vacation time, professional training courses, early 401(k) contributions, free company windbreaker or use of the company jet, etc. |
| 2010-11-29 3:04 PM in reply to: #3229120 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers I agree entirely with your last paragraph, but I disagree with you in terms of not saying real numbers. I negotiate salaries all the time, and I can tell you from experience that, at least in my industry, the range of what applicants consider to be “fair and market rate” can be vast. People overestimate their own worth, or get conflicting or outright incorrect information from friends/family/the interwebs. If I ask you what you’d like to make, and you say, “something fair”, that’s fine. But then don’t be outraged and take it personally when I come back with an offer that’s lower than what you’re looking for. OTOH, tell me what you’re looking for, and, if I really want to hire you, and if I can, I’ll give you what you want. An employee who accepts an offer that is less than they need to survive, or even which is much lower than they’d be easily able to get elsewhere will quit as soon as they get another offer for more money, and then I’ll be stuck filling the same job again six months later. I’m not looking to give money away, but I want the candidate to be happy with what they accept. |
| 2010-11-29 3:29 PM in reply to: #3226791 |
Master 1795 Boynton Beach, FL | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers Easyier to answer this question while employed vs. other side of the isle. You knwo you want to not cheapen your experience with low # and at same time hate to be lose opportunity due to another prospect tightening their belt a bit tighter. I liek the idea of revewing salary again in 90 days. Times have quickly turned as it was only 2-3 years ago I was throwing every incentive possible at good candidates to get them on board. Sign on bonus, additional vacation days, gurenteed incentives, etc. Today, it is certainly a hiring manager's market. I highly respect your decision to look for strong corporate culture. Good chance that they will recognize you monetarily soon after your ability is proven if not right from the start. Good luck in your decision. |
| 2010-12-03 9:39 AM in reply to: #3226791 |
Veteran 345 SE TX | Subject: RE: Question for HR Managers I was intrigued by this scenario. Has it come to a resolution? |
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